24 and 48 fail inspection...

[HUDSON HORNET]

Well, of course--that's why there's "grey areas" as Crew Chiefs like to say.

Unfortunately, what's a "gray area" to a crew chief, --- is a green area to NA$CAR.

                                              

[metalchick]

Well that's the first thing I thought of Hendrick cars getting a pentalty well it has happened thank goodnwess not a bad one as I have them in my pool. Anything cannot spoil my mood tonight as my JAYS defeated Colorado, great game

[Chris]

Oh come on.  I'm not a big Gordon/Johnson fan, but I for one doubt the rule book is this precise. After all, we can only guess what the rules for the sport are as they're not for public review and they can change at any time.  Taking this large template for example.  If the rule book states  pretty much only that the points on the template have to be lowered down onto the car and touch in all those points, and that's what the 24 & 48 cars do, then they should be within the rule.  However, if the rules state what can or can't happen to the spaces between the points, then they're cheating and were hoping to simply not get caught.  I would expect there would be a section of the rule book covering sheet metal and stating where or if any holes, venting, flares, etc. can or can't be placed. 

IMO, the crew's job is to follow the rule book and then look for ways in which to increase the efficiency and performance of the car.  If it's by shape, design, materials, the way it's applied or implemented, or whatever... then they need to find that advantage and implement it to help win.  If NASCAR discovers it, and it's not specifically within the rules, then IMO NASCAR should keep it to themselves and if they want to implement a rule about it then they do so with the next rule book re-write.  It's up to each of the teams to develop and improve their team and win races/championships.  Sometimes this is accomplished by the mechanical aspects of the car, team communication, relationships/chemistry, driver skills, tools, or whatever else gives your team any sort of advantage on qualifying/practice/race day.  Build the car within the letter of the rule book; develop communication standards or codes to result in quick, accurate and efficient communication; develop driver:crew, crew:crew relationships through social events, counseling or whatever; improve driver skills by physical and mental exercises; utilize the best tools available; organize tool, crew, & team placement to result in the most efficient and quickest performance.  It all goes together to make a winning team.  And if it's not in the rules, then it's fair game.

If the rules only state that these 32 template points (or however many of them there are) spaced X distance from one another have to lower and touch the car at the right spots, and that's what happens.  Then there shouldn't be a problem. If teams figure out a way through design, application, material usage, whatever to improve upon the area between (or even under or around the points) then they should look for ways to create an advantage.  Maybe they'll discover a way, within the rules, to get more downforce on the track.

If the rule book says your jack has a max/min weight, but doesn't say anything about how high each stroke of the jack can lift the car, then the team better find a way to make that jack lift 1" higher per stroke than all the other jacks on pit road. Maybe they'll discover a way, within the rules, to spend less time on pit road.

I fully expect this to come down to "action detrimental to stock car racing."  Hell, the more I think about it I doubt the rule book is really a book at all.  Considering how that catch-all rule is used for damn near everything, it must just be a pamphlet.

Since I been gone a week,.. and I'm gettong caught up on the FS site... I may post some more.  SO far I'm just on page two of this thread.
But since I had a couple years experience working on a pit crew, getting cars threw pre-race inspection, etc... I feel maybe I might be able to shed some light on your question Sunkist.
As far as the templates, of course they have changes somewhat with the 'overall claw' type template.  But there are still smaller templates that butt up against the claw to fit around the noses corners, etc to make sure of more precise fits.
Just so you understand how "tolerances" work and how if someone is judged "in' or 'out" (illegal)... it's actually done with a small metal triangle shaped piece of metal (Aluminum I believe).
When the templates lay down on the cars body there is a 'tolerance" from where they lay perfectly flat on the body, to when there is a gap where the template is raised off of the body.
This triangle shaped aluminum shim is slid into the gap.  if it slides in to far, it is declared illegal (out of specification)
SO you have to go and work on the body shape and make it conform to the templates.

OBVIOUSLY the bodys of the HMS cars were so far out of shape it was deemed to be more than "accidental"
Also EVERY teams team manager, engineers, etc all assembled to NASCAR headquarters for EXTENSIVE training so they all knew IN ADVANCE what was allowed, and what was considered out of bounds.
Also if ANY team ever has any questions they can pick up the phone and call NASCAR head quarters and ASK if something is legal before they do something to their car... so there is NEVER an excuse for saying "we didn't know"

SO for someone to mess with the fenders, etc and then come up now and say "it was an accident" I kinda find hard to believe
Something like happened to the #8 team could be "an accident" because NASCAR passed out a couple different sets of rear wind spoiler brackets,.. then the wrong ones just got mounted on the car.
IMO with an item like that being of virtually NO areodymanic advantage, I was surprised at the 100 / 100 penalty.

THIS is something dealing with the nose, front downforce, etc... MUCH worse than the #8 infraction.  SO to get a 100/100 penalty I would consider the HMS crew getting off "easy" (because of the location, and it was intentional)

You have to remember the CoT was intended NOT to be tampered with.  NASCAR's INTENT is to do away with all the teams looking for ways to create more downforce, get more downforce, etc etc.  Thats the whole poiint of the car in the first place.  ALL cars being equal,... all the time, at all tracks.  This (should) cut back on teams doing like has happened in the past and having a fleet of 12+ cars.  Some for short tracks, some for super speedways, some for intermediate tracks, ... all because the teams twisted and tweaked on the bodies, and found a way to make the templates fit.


Edit bv Ren:  Just fixed the quote box Chris.  -- Ren

[Chris]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. 
Get a stamping facility and crank out a few hundred of each panel.
I'd think that would be a cost savings too.

Cost saving .... for who...??
Not NASCAR thats for sure.
I was just up and took a tour of a old automobile manufacturing plant.
I know it was said in jest,.. but in all seriousness.  NASCAR's NOT gonna shell out millions of dollars (each) for a stamping press for four fenders, a roof, hood, trunk..... and then KNOW they only have about 50 customers

To invest that kinda money you have to think you are going to sell MILLIONS of cars.

[FS Ren]

Chad Knaus mentioned that it was definitely not an accident.  That all the templates fit, but the area between the templates was what NASCAR had a problem with.  They had made some modifications to the areas that aren't touched by the templates to improve downforce.  NASCAR said that they didn't want the teams changing those areas at all, so that's why they parked them and had them fix the problems. 

I don't think they will get near the penalty that  DEI got though since they didn't mess with the wing or the splitter which are the two verboten parts according to NASCAR.  Of course the HMS detractors will cry foul, because it's HMS, but it's really not the same as what the No. 8 crew carelessly did.

OBVIOUSLY the bodys of the HMS cars were so far out of shape it was deemed to be more than "accidental"
Also EVERY teams team manager, engineers, etc all assembled to NASCAR headquarters for EXTENSIVE training so they all knew IN ADVANCE what was allowed, and what was considered out of bounds.
Also if ANY team ever has any questions they can pick up the phone and call NASCAR head quarters and ASK if something is legal before they do something to their car... so there is NEVER an excuse for saying "we didn't know"

SO for someone to mess with the fenders, etc and then come up now and say "it was an accident" I kinda find hard to believe
Something like happened to the #8 team could be "an accident" because NASCAR passed out a couple different sets of rear wind spoiler brackets,.. then the wrong ones just got mounted on the car.
IMO with an item like that being of virtually NO areodymanic advantage, I was surprised at the 100 / 100 penalty.

THIS is something dealing with the nose, front downforce, etc... MUCH worse than the #8 infraction.  SO to get a 100/100 penalty I would consider the HMS crew getting off "easy" (because of the location, and it was intentional)

You have to remember the CoT was intended NOT to be tampered with.  NASCAR's INTENT is to do away with all the teams looking for ways to create more downforce, get more downforce, etc etc.  Thats the whole poiint of the car in the first place.  ALL cars being equal,... all the time, at all tracks.  This (should) cut back on teams doing like has happened in the past and having a fleet of 12+ cars.  Some for short tracks, some for super speedways, some for intermediate tracks, ... all because the teams twisted and tweaked on the bodies, and found a way to make the templates fit.

[Blu]

VERY GOOD POST and VERY GOOD POINTS Chris!!  The "intent" is the point I was trying to make also.

It has NOTHING to do with the fact that it was an HMS car (s) and I dont care who did it. Cheating is cheating!

As Chris said ..it could have been easily resolved IF they did indeed question their decision. They didnt, and thought they could pull a fast one, or NASCAR would let it slide IMHO.   YES it was intentional (and I agree that Jr.s could easily have just been an honest mistake of grabbing a set of brackets out of a bin of several and getting the wrong ones) and should have SEVERE penalties!

HH, you have a point but trust me when I say that I ONLY mean the bodies of the cars (I think you know me welll enough to know that ).Teams have to pay to have them built or pay someone on their team to build them anyways and it would indeed elimnate any "gray areas".

 It's no different than the wings on the COT IMO, they are manufactured and handed out randomly by NASCAR to avoid this very thing. This seems to be  NASCARS direction (and I may or may not agree with it) to "standardize" these cars and this solution seems like the right thing to do if thats the case. NO ALTERATIONS TO THE BODIES! Pretty simple IMO. Plus...the Brain could make a $$

[Blu]

Cost saving .... for who...??
Not NASCAR thats for sure.
I was just up and took a tour of a old automobile manufacturing plant.
I know it was said in jest,.. but in all seriousness.  NASCAR's NOT gonna shell out millions of dollars (each) for a stamping press for four fenders, a roof, hood, trunk..... and then KNOW they only have about 50 customers

To invest that kinda money you have to think you are going to sell MILLIONS of cars.

True Chris but couldnt they just hire someone who already has this stuff to do it?Doesnt seem like it would cost all that much for just the "dies"  and they will more than likely stay the same for several years IMO.

[FS Ren]

I don't think the "intent" was to cheat the rules, since it was an obvious and noticeable modification.  I'm just about positive that the plan was "it's better to ask for forgiveness afterwards than ask for permission prior"  which seems to be the way that Knaus goes about rulebook variances.  Since it was so obvious I believe the hope was that NASCAR would determine that since it wasn't against the written rules, that NASCAR would at least allow it this race, then, if there was a problem they'd issue a bulletin on it, disallowing the procedure in the future. 

It's not even close to cheating though since it was in the open and not disallowed by the rules.  I'm not saying that NASCAR won't penalize them, just that it wasn't cheating according to NASCAR's own directives.

[Chris]

I don't think the "intent" was to cheat the rules, since it was an obvious and noticeable modification.  I'm just about positive that the plan was "it's better to ask for forgiveness afterwards than ask for permission prior"  which seems to be the way that Knaus goes about rulebook variances.  Since it was so obvious I believe the hope was that NASCAR would determine that since it wasn't against the written rules, that NASCAR would at least allow it this race, then, if there was a problem they'd issue a bulletin on it, disallowing the procedure in the future. 

It's not even close to cheating though since it was in the open and not disallowed by the rules.  I'm not saying that NASCAR won't penalize them, just that it wasn't cheating according to NASCAR's own directives.

Yeah.. I understand the "ask for forgiveness" thinking.  I read (or heard from someone) the modifications were so extreme you could literally see it with the naked eye.  I mean it wasn't like it wasn't a "little" off... It was way out in left field.
Also if we go on the previous theory that NASCAR supposedly told the engineers, etc in the seminars, training etc...
"Everthing not allowed by the rules is considered illegal" ... that pretty much covers it.
Seems to be the way things are progressing with this new body, and the way things are being enforced.  They are keeping a tight lid on everything, and intend to keep everything reigned in it seems
That keeps everyone on the same page,.. and helps the small teams stay competative

[Blu]

  So..if you blatantly and openly cheat its OK??

 I beg to differ....although I do agree with somehting.

I do believe they thought NASCAR would allow it this race.

I still know I heard somene (a NASCAR ofifcial) say "If it's not specifically allowed in the rule book..you can't do it!"




"I believe the hope was that NASCAR would determine that since it wasn't against the written rules, that NASCAR would at least allow it this race, then, if there was a problem they'd issue a bulletin on it, disallowing the procedure in the future."

Ohhh...so in other words..let them have an advantage for one race and dont let anyone else do it. Yeah..that seems right.

Im sure there were no "written rules" not allowing DEI to use those previously NASCAR approved and then apparntly unapproved   spoiler brackets either. I know, I know..".unapproved parts".Ok..what about "unapproved modifications"

[racin_girl72]

I thought this was a good commentary on the whole mess

http://www.thatsracin.com/247/story/5029.html

This part caught my eye, he does have a point here.

That might stunt the momentum that has allowed the 24 and 48 to win a combined eight races this year. Or, it might give Letarte and Knaus time at home to get their teams’ best race cars lined up and ready to go for the Chase for the Nextel Cup, when the momentum really matters.

and

Unless NASCAR penalizes Gordon and Johnson enough points to put their Chase chances in jeopardy, and it won’t, points penalties are inconsequential. So, too, will be any kind of monetary fine, even if the current record of $100,000 should be broken.

I agree with him on this.  These penalties won't do a thing to them.  It did hurt Burton and Riggs more.

[Blu]

GREAT article RG!! I agree!

I am sick of these frgigin "gray areas". Maybe its just me (and it probably is) but HMS seems to use that term more than  any other after theyve been caught.

[FS Ren]

I don't think that the crew chiefs are stupid enough to blatantly and openly cheat. I think they are a lot better at cheating than that.  Like I said, I don't think they were trying to cheat.  I'm almost certain that they thought what they were doing fell within the rules as they are written.  Knaus even said that it was done purposely.

"If it's not specifically allowed in the rule book..you can't do it!" is fine, but if what is allowed is too vague to enforce, then that's the gray area that crew chiefs MUST explore to gain a competitive advantage.  To do otherwise is dereliction of their duties to give a driver the best car they can put on the track with the resources they have. 

Again, the 8 team wasn't purposely cheating when they put on the wrong brackets that had been patently disapproved by NASCAR.  It was just carelessness.  And that pretty much summed up what is wrong with the 8 team. A careless mistake cost them 100 points, a bucketload of cash and the loss of a mediocre crew chief for a few races.  But that is one of two areas that NASCAR was not vague about. The teams can't mess with the spoiler or splitter no matter if it's intentional or not  It was the same as if they 'accidentally' put a rat motor under the hood.

Gray areas?  I love 'em! 

[HUDSON HORNET]

HH, you have a point but trust me when I say that I ONLY mean the bodies of the cars (I think you know me welll enough to know that ).

You know I do, good neighbor! 

Even if I don't agree with you on certain matters, I'll ALWAYS agree on that point.
Remember, it ain't "once upon a time."
Nope!
It's "you ain't gonna believe this sheep-dip." Or, "chit"  (Or as Ros says, "carp")

After all, in the end, it's all only
S hip
H igh
I n
T ransit.

Right? 


**(Trucker Lingo folks, trucker lingo)**