so.. what's your take?? Champs Prov / Swapping

[Chris]

HI folks...
As we all know there has been some dust stirred up this season over champions provisionals, and using them to get a car in the field.
Of course if you follow it back to the very FIRST inception if was brought about so R Petty wouldn't miss the fields.  Nascar just couldn't stomach the thought of their greatest driver even missing a field now and then as he got older.
Of course D Waltrip took the CP deal to new heights when he stayed WAY past his prime and used it almost every race the last year or so of his career.
SO now it has been reduced down to just 6 uses per driver.  That sounds OK,.. but now teams are looking to get the 'most' out of those 6 uses.
This year Waltrip hired DJ to drive for him thinking he would have an "automatic IN' for the #44 car since DJ would get to start the first 6 races at least with Jarretts CP.  WIth rain outs, etc.. DJ got to start the first 9 races, and still found himself outside the top 35 in points when his provisionals ran out.... and it's been down hill ever since.
M Waltrip is NO road course driver, and stepped OUT of his car, and put in T Labonte so he would Automatically be in both of the road course races. (seems like another race also)
Then the #21 team struggled and Schrader wasn't getting the job done in qualifying or the race, so they put B Elliott into the car to try and get them back into the top 35 in points.  Bill got them back into the top 35 (using only one CP) and as soon as they got back in the top 35 the Woods Bros put Schrader back in the car, and he promptly put them OUT of the top 35 again.  SO Elliott again goes back in the car.

SO now we are already hearing rumblings about what will happen in 2008.  Elliott will share the #21 car with J Wood, and Ambrose.  I'm guessing he'll run the first 5 or 6 races to try and get it up in the points..??
We've also heard DJ will START the #44 car for the first five races,.. then retire from driving... trying what they did at MWR last season, and try to have the car in the top 35 in points after 5 races so Reutimann can get in it.
Then we heard they might switch numbers (points) with Kyle Petty should Petty NOT in up in the top 35 in owner points in 2007.  Then Kyle would get Labonte's points from 2007 and be assured a starting spot for 2008, and Labonte would have the CP...
The newest rumor is that Penske could make a move and swap points with Kurt Busch (2004 Champ)  Hornish has YET to make a CUP race but Penske wants his racing in the events.  SO it's looking likely that Penske will give Hornish Kurts points, and leave Busch the CP to fall back on.   Obviously this would leave Busch as the most "recent" champion.  Then Labonte would be next (2000), then Jarret (1999) followed by Elliott.
SO what do you all THINK of all this....
Remember this is ALL perfectly within the Nascar rules...
Should Nascar try and change the rules to prevent some of this...
Is it ok, to let guys like Hornish who can't even make the field (or guys with no experience like Francitti or some of the other open wheelers) just get a ride off of someone elses points
It'll make the field of "go or go home" cars a LOT tougher to crack...  Imagine Busch, Elliott, Labonte (who almost ALWAYS make the field on time) in the go or go home cars for the first 6 races.

Just some interesting things to think about and ponder.  I guess this would have made a good "off season" question..??

[James J.]

I don't care for it.  I probably need to think about it a bit more, or hear somebody else's opinion on it, but I don't think I'm really a fan of the Champions Provisional at all.  Just because you won a championship 10 years ago doesn't mean you can be competitive today.  Who's to say one of those old cats decided to jump in the car one day and race at Daytona.  They haven't raced in forever, and now because they were a champ back in the 70's they should be allowed to jump in the car?

The field is so dense with competitive cars I think there should simply be something done as a provisional of sort for those times when $#!& happens beyond a driver's control on the track during a qualifying run.  Perhaps the last car that went out to qualify blew up and put oil on the track, or swiped the wall and put debris on the track that didn't get cleaned up well by the track crew.  I'd hate to see a driver not make the race (who would normally make the race and be competitive) because of those type of situations.  It's not cool for the fans who pay their hard earned money to see their favorite driver at their local track.

So I'd be more in favor of some sort of "mulligan" provisional rule like this:

• Full time driver
• Must be in the top 25 Drivers points (because that's who the fans pay to see, the drivers!)
  
• Used only for when qualifying incidents beyond their control would prevent them from making the field (oil or debris on track, accident, motor blows)
• One use per year
• Must qualify their backup car, but are only guaranteed the 43rd starting position (In other words, they still have to put their backup car in the show by speed, but they're not getting that position)
• If multiple drivers need it during a race weekend, the driver highest in the top 25 gets it. The other(s) go home.

As far as swapping points, I'm not in favor of that either.  Kurt's points shouldn't be given to a greenhorn just to get them into the race.  If the greenhorn can't qualify, then maybe he needs to spend more time in the lower series honing his skills.... like most everyone else did.  If they can come straight into Cup and qualify, and have racing experience (like these open wheelers do), then more power to them. 

I don't like teams pulling a driver (or in Mikey's case, pulling himself) out of a car for one race to put in a past champion just to make sure he makes the race.  I'm honestly not in favor of teams pulling their drivers out of the car and putting road coarse ringers in either.  In my opinion, if they want to do that then they should be allowed to pull the primary driver out of the car, put in a ringer (to benefit Owners points), but the primary driver must race in another car for the team.  This series is about racing on short tracks, speedways, superspeedways, and yes... road coarses.  If your Cup driver can't make the field on a road coarse event, then maybe you need to send him to Skip Barber driving school or something. Him being in the race is the only way he's going to get the actual experience. DUH!

[south jersey girl]

I think everyone should start from scratch at the beginning of the year.  Shouldn't be locked into Daytona, just because you (or the driver you replaced) were in the top 35 at the end of the previous year.   Qualify on speed, or race your way in on the qualifying race.  If you don't qualify, better luck next week...

I also think that 35 locked in is too much...should only be 20, 25 at the most.  So for the second race of the year, if you finished in the top 20-25 at Daytona, then you're locked in.

[Chris]

yeah.. you make some good points SunKist.
As far as the qualifying "Mulligans"... I am sure you are aware what you suggested is a 'form' of what we have before this top 35 lock in crap.
Used to be the fastest 36 or 38 got in on speed.  Then the 'provisionals' were just used for drivers near the TOP in points who had problems qualifying.  They were used from the top down.  If the points leader had a problem qualifying, he got the first provisional.  If the guy 5th in points had a problem (or was too slow) the got the 2nd provisional, and so forth until they filled the field.

I think this is what they need to go back to.... with a few revisions.
First I'm like you.  I'd only limit the provisionals to the top 25 or 35 in points.
Then I would give teams more than ONE provisional.  I'd give them 6 for the whole season.  Used to be ALL the teams started off with 4, and then every X number of races they ran, they got another provisional added.... so by the end of the year they could get 10 or more.  I'd just give them 6 at the start and be done with it.
IMO this is a good revision.  It keeps some of the numbers they have now, (35 is where the cut off is now for go or go home... and 6 is how many CP you get for the season).. this goes back to the way it worked BEST in the past and uses some old and some new...

[Chris]

I also think that 35 locked in is too much...should only be 20, 25 at the most.

I know what you are getting at here SJG... but here's an idea.
IMO if we lock in "ANY" number of drivers it is still wrong.  Right now we have 35 locked in and 8 spots for go or go home cars.  If we locked in 25 drivers,.. then we'd still have the exact same problem we have now,... only we'd just have MORE go or go home cars (18 instead of 8 spots)
IMO it don't do anything to eliminate the problem of many teams getting an advantage of "not" having to worry about qualifying, and getting an advantage by using the first practice session as a 'race' set up session, and thereby having a leg up on the go or go home guys.  In fact it could make this issue worse because now there would be LESS cars locked in,.. and less cars working on race setups before qualifying.  So we would have a wider gap between more cars being ready to go racing on race days,.. and those who lost time having to spend time worrying about qualifying.
This would be ESPECIALLY BAD at races where they have impound in place,.. and qualifying is LAST.  The go or go home cars would concentrate mostly on qualifying,.. and the top 25 would work MOSTLY on race set ups.  25 of the cars would be ready to race on race day... the other 20 would have to 'guess' and probably not be very competative on race days...
I think IMO doing away with the top 35 lock for qualifying is the best option.

[Fathead]

I'm actually suprised that this hasn't happened yet.  When Jr was team shopping still, I thought if he went to JGR they do the same thing, give Jr the 20's points and let stewart use the champ provisionals.  So to see Penske do it, it's not suprising.


I understand the idea of protecting sponsors.  I don't agree with it, but I understand it.   I think 25 provisional spots based on points is enough.  If you can't make the field when there are 18 spots open each week, you are doing something wrong.

[Chris]

I understand the idea of protecting sponsors.  I don't agree with it, but I understand it.   I think 25 provisional spots based on points is enough.  If you can't make the field when there are 18 spots open each week, you are doing something wrong.

I know what you are saying... but you gotta remember... nothing REALLY changes.  You STILL got 50 cars qualifying for 43 spots.  Only now you have 25 locked in instead of 35.  25 drivers now have to get in on speed instead of 15.
SO currenty along with the go or go home guys we have now,.... we'd just add the cars of Sadler, Stremme, R Gordon, Menard, Rudd, Green (now Mayfield), Gilliland, Sauter, Petty, and Blaney.
These guys would just have to waste a practice session the way the current 'go or go homers' do now, just to try and get into the field.  It would make a wider gap between those who could concentrate on race sets up for three sessions and those who couldn't.
IMO I think NONE of the cars should be locked in as it is currently.... ANYONE being locked in just makes for an uneven playing field as far as practice goes.  Moving the number from 35 to 25 (or 15 or 10) just raises the 'ceiling' and gives those teams an advantage over those below the number (whatever the number is) 

[Fathead]

Do any of those 10 guys you named seem to actually benefit from the "extra" practice session?   They obviously aren't running up front.   They aren't contending for wins.   All they seem to be gaining is a chance to breathe easier on Friday.



In a perfect world, they all would qualify based on time.   But it is not going to happen.  If Nascar has proven anything in the last 5 years, it's that they aren't going to admit a mistake.  35 is too much though.   Make it the top 25, have 18 open spots.  If you aren't fast enough to be in the top 18 of 25 cars trying to make the race on time, then you know you shouldn't be in the race.


And get rid of the silly champ provisional.   I'm sorry, but I'm not buying a ticket to LVMS next spring because DJ won a championship back in 1999 and is guaranteed to be in the race.  I'm buying a ticket because I hope to see a good show with the fastest cars as possible on the track.

[flamehothead]

I'm pretty sure most of the regulars on here know where I stand on the PCP and the Top 35.

I'm with SJG, When you get to Daytona your going to either qualify or your going to the house bottom line and that should be the case for EVERY race.

I don't agree with giving anything to anyone but IF their going to then Nascar should give the drivers outside the Top 35 the FREE starting spot so they can have a better chance of getting into the Top 35.

I'm completely against drivers coming out of so called retirement just so a team like MWR or the Wood Bros can use that drivers Provisionals. Even though I don't like the CP if Nascar IS going to make them available then this is how they should be used Example: If MWR wants to bring in T.Labonte to drive for them then Labonte should have to drive for a certain number of races NOT just use him for his provisionals then go back into retirement.

It just seems that the teams outside the Top 35 really don't have a chance. They don't have the budget as the Top teams do and they couldn't afford to hire a driver like Elliott or a Labonte to get them out of the hole.

There should be 43 starting spots and if your one of the 43 fastest cars then it looks like your going to race but if not then you need to do some testing. I agree with Sunkist, Just because they were good 10 years ago doesn't mean their going to be good today. The Top 35 should be thrown right out the window. Why should anyone be awarded for something they did the previous year. Why should M.Waltrip be guaranteed a starting spot in the Daytona 500 when it was T.Labonte who put him in the Top 35?

Like I said, You show up, You Qualify, You Race, You go home and may the Best Driver/Car/Team Win. Too many Politics lol.

[Chris]

Do any of those 10 guys you named seem to actually benefit from the "extra" practice session?   They obviously aren't running up front.   They aren't contending for wins.

I know what you are trying to say.... do they benefit.  Sure they do.  They get an EXTRA session to practice on RACE setups, and not have to worry about spending time worrying about working on qualifying.  Look at how much better Blaney has run the last 8 or 10 races since he got back into the top 35.  He's posted some really good finishes... and Blaney has missed three races (still in top 35)
Sauter has missed a race, and also still managed to stay in the top 35...

Most important IMO is that the whole season is set the first 6 races.  I think people tend to forget that.  Thats why NASCAR loves the carry over top 35 lock in from the previous year.  They know that those top 35 will automatically start the first 6 races, and SHOULD put themselves into a position where they are set in the points for the rest of the season.
The guys from 25th to 40 had problems (more or less) at the start of the season... and thats why they are in those spots now.  Jarret sucked at the start of the season,.. so he screwed himself.  Waltrip got caught cheating, and ended up 'negative' in points after Daytona, missed the next few races, and he was done for the season.  ON the other Hand, D Ragan got to start the season with M Martins number, and he has shown he deserves to be where he is in the points.  Right now he has fallen to 25th in the points, but two weeks ago he was 20th.  Not bad for a raw rookie.

I guess I'm just saying the first part of the season sets the tome for the whole year.  I DO AGREE thats even more of a reason for all of the carsto qualify every week on speed.  Why should teams be penalized ALL Season because they may have got caught up in 'the big one' at Daytona, blown a motor at Atlanta, and have a tire go down and lose three laps under a green flag pit stop at Martinsville...
If every race the fastest started each race,... then each team would go into qualifying with a clean slate, and every car would get in on speed, and have a fair shot.

I also agree NASCAR has a bad habit of NEVER admitting when it is wrong,.. so seeing any changes is unlikely.

[Tyyrus]

Like I said, You show up, You Qualify, You Race, You go home and may the Best Driver/Car/Team Win. Too many Politics lol.

Yep , thats the way it should be Flammer !  I concur that that's the way Pure Racing should be run !   

[Fathead]

I know what you are trying to say.... do they benefit.  Sure they do.  They get an EXTRA session to practice on RACE setups, and not have to worry about spending time worrying about working on qualifying.  Look at how much better Blaney has run the last 8 or 10 races since he got back into the top 35.  He's posted some really good finishes... and Blaney has missed three races (still in top 35)
Sauter has missed a race, and also still managed to stay in the top 35...

I meant in comparison to the front runners.   Obviously, yes, compared to the guys locked out it's an advantage.   What I'm trying to say is that in all honesty, the guys in the top 25 have at least a semi-realistic shot at winning a race (probably more like top 20).  25-35 really don't.   

And it seems to me that a lot of the guys who are outside the top 35 seem to run quite well once they get into the race.   Better than the guys just in front of them in the points, but since they miss as much as they make it, they're screwed.   

I would absolutely love to see the fastest 43 iin the race.  The first post I made was a list of who would have been in if that was the case this year.   But it is not going to happen.   I think changing the rule to the top 25 is the closest we're going to get.  And I stand by the idea that if you aren't fast enough to make the field when there are 18 open spots each week, then you don't deserve to race. 

[Chris]

I would absolutely love to see the fastest 43 iin the race.  The first post I made was a list of who would have been in if that was the case this year.

I agree with having the fastest 43 race every week.  It's the only way to go... But like you said... never gonna happen.  Best we could wish for is going back wo what we had BEFORE the top 35 lock

As far as looking at and making and kinda list of what 'would' of happened with qualifying.....  useless
Anything you would come up with would just be worthless.  As we all know those IN the top 35 just don't WORRY about qualifying speeds in the first round of practice,.. so when they qualify they can have slower speeds (and positions) than the go or go homes guys who HAVE to worry about getting in on time.  SO the go or go home guys spend ALL the first practice session working on getting set up for the fastest qualing speed they can do,... while those already locked in need not worry.
A perfect example is the last DEGA race.  The top 11 qualifiers were ALL go or go home cars.  SO it was obvious they ALL worked on qualifying speed.  The 9th fastest qualifier was sent home. (and 10th, and 11th)  B Labonte was the FIRST non go or go homer and he qualified 12th.
Anyway, point being, if ALL the teams played off the same play book (having to qualify on speed) THEN you could compare like people try to do now.  BUt folks trying to compare what went on this season and saying "these folks would have" been sent home is totally false.

[SMOKEN14]

My opinion is you take the 43 fastest cars from qualifying  and the rest go home if JR Jeff Jimmy Or Tony miss the race tuff better luck next time and get rid of the chase for the championship the best driver over the season should be the champion

[Leadfoote]

I know I'm pissin' in the wind.....but I reckon qual on time or go home too.