Nascar looking at rule changes.

[DougS]

From jayski:

Rule changes ahead for Truck Series? In an effort to help save the teams money for the 2009 season and beyond, we are hearing that NASCAR may be ready to announce a couple of rule changes for the Truck Series. First, teams will be limited on the number of hard cards (annual credentials) they can purchase for the season. This will help control the number of people teams are bringing to the track each weekend. The other rule change rumor that is going around, is that NASCAR will limit the number of guys that can go over the wall during a pit stop. NASCAR will go from allowing seven men over the wall, to six. If this happens, expect teams to take away one of the tire carriers. Again, this would in theory help teams save money, as they would need one less crew member for pit stops.(TheNASCARInsiders.com)

First off this sounds like a social experiment to me. "Lets try this in the truck series first and see what the response is" if your going to limit hardcards then do it across the board. I have no idea what a hard card costs but I'm sure that NASCAR controls the prices of these $4.00 pieces of plastic run through a computer. Seems to me like NASCAR could do some of it's own cost cutting to save teams some thin streched dollars.

2nd NASCAR has only mandated people over the wall for safety reasons. Stick to safety. Why do you want to change the format of the most comptetive series you have.

NASCAR has to be careful in telling owners who they can and can't bring to the racetrack. If I was an owner and wanted to save money my shock specialist would also be my tire specialist who could also be my engineer. But to compete I need the best 7 guys available to go over that wall no matter what series.

I hope that Chris can sound off here, being a former Truck Series team member.

[Chris]

well... I'll throw in what little i know.. we were a small team, so we wouldn't of had a problem of having "too many" folks show up...

I can throw this out.  IMO I think this is all just a smoke screen by NASCAR to "say" they are doing something to save the teams money.
Basically all a hard card does is save you from having to go to the NASCAR booth outside, and sign in and get a pass to get in for the week.  It is just a "pass" you pay for in advance, and it automatically gets you into the pits for all the races for all season.
SO by NASCAR cutting back the number of hard cards by "1" really don't "do" anything.  (but they never did say what the number they would cut back by)
EVERY team has a list of people they want to let in under their name,.. be it an employee, driver and team members wives, sponsors and their wives, etc etc.  You just leave their name at the gate (kinda like a "will call") they show an ID, and they sign a release, and get a pass to get in.
If I'm not mistaken there are a limited number of passes per team per week,.. but I think there's plenty to go around.

SO in the long run what I am saying is this... by NASCAR making teams purchase "one less" hard card,.. teams IMO would just push one more person over to the guest list and nothing would change.  In effect all it would do would cause more of an inconvenence for the teams on the day the track opened... having one team member being delayed getting in, while everyone else went right in and was able to go right to work.

As far as the cost of the hard cards... To be honest I don't remember.  We never intended to race the full series, so we never checked into buying them.  Best I remember it seems they worked out to be about $50 per race (so $50 x 26 races = $1,300)  Of course this was 5 or 6 years ago and even that seems low??... NO doubt it could be much higher by now.  Perhaps someone else has more recent info.

I also agree I can't see a reason for using LESS people going over the wall... Granted NASCAR is going to say one less person over the wall is one less person to get hit,.. but IMO I think one person lugging around two tires is an awkward load, and theres more chances a tire could get loose, a truck could hit it and knock it back into the pits hitting a crew member.  I kinda see it as being LESS safe this way.

Also,..It'll definately change the strategy of racing too if you think about it...  One guy has to take TWO tires out... and you still have ONE guy to get BOTH tires back around on the other side of the truck (car) by himself.  Before you had each tire carrier had to get the tire back... (remember they have to be in contact with the tire until it is more than 1/2 way past the center of the truck)... so now you have one guy that will carry out two tires... tire changers will be done,.. and one poor guy trying to get the tires back BEFORE the left side tires are changed... It's gonna be a tall order to get that done with all the running around he'll have to do (and stay in contact with the tires).  He'll have to lay one tire down (so it don't roll away)... roll the front tire around the front of the truck to at least 1/2 way, then let it go so someone else can catch it... then turn around and pick up the tire still laying on the outside of the truck, pick it up and roll it around the back (I suppose) of the truck and roll it around to past 1/2 way before the driver can leave the pits.... what a complete mess.
In this is what I see as another safety issue... usually the teams seem to work in the same sequence.. they pretty much all change rights together,.. and then change lefts together...
Of course you always have vehicles that were way back on the lead lap coming in late... What I see as a safety issue is that USUALLY once the crew member get done changing the right side tires, then they run around to do the inside (left) side tire they are pretty well in a protected position.  Now because of one less crew member here you'll have this one poor guy having to run back out into an unsafe place again where he may get hit to get a tire.  How many time hace we saw cars and truck come together as they were trying to get out of their pit stalls and bumped and banded on each other.  They'll still do that... only now they'll just be running over a pit crew member trying to retrive a tire

Now what about THIS... what if they decide they want to just do a two tire pit stop abd change right side tires... how can you get one done quickly that way...  that'll be a circle jerk.
This must be some idea "The Brian" came up with... I always hate the off season.  Gives The Brian too much time to sit and think and come up with more stupid ideas...      

What is everyone elses thoughts..

[scott b]

I agree with you on all points:

1. Minimal cost savings to teams.
2. Safety issue with guys still retrieving tires from the right side of pitted vehicles as other drivers are exiting pit road.
3. Two tire strategy will be a less attractive option in most cases due to the added time.

If they were actually reducing the number of people travelling with the team, it could save real money... but how does NASCAR regulate that?  Big teams can still bring more manpower than little ones, it's just a cosmetic change.

[Chris]

If they were actually reducing the number of people travelling with the team, it could save real money... but how does NASCAR regulate that?  Big teams can still bring more manpower than little ones, it's just a cosmetic change.

Bottom line IMO is this... "little" teams can't afford to bring a whole "mass" of folks with them to the track as it is now... so this is just window dressing

[DougS]

Brining this back to the top.

Jayski has two reports: That the CWTS will only allow 4 people over the wall and another, that a team is saying the number is 5 people over the wall.

Until officall notice from NASCAR comes I'll belive the team Two tire carrier's Two tire changers and a Jackman.

This will bring an interesting twist and have to wait and see about further explination of the rule. I read an article this morning that teams will NOT be allowed to fuel and change tires in the same stop, but it seamed like writer speculation.

So either longer pit stops as people change out going over the wall or two stops for complete service, with two oppertunites to speed on pit road, leaders and lappers pitting on top of each other.

Once again awaiting offical rule change from NASCAR. But I seee this as a fiasco rigth until someone gets hurt on pitroad.

[skool]

I cant see just alowing 4 to go over cuz you got to have someone to carry the jack, 2 tire carriers, 2 tire changers...........especially for the right side of the car/truck!  5 would have to be the minimum I would think.

[KurtBuschFan]

Definitely waiting on the official word from NASCAR, but judging by how it's explained on jayski, you could do it with four since teams won't be able to get fuel and tires at the same time (at least from what I'm reading so far).  What kind of crap is that?

[CodeBlueEMT]

 Remember when there were no pit stops? I didn't care for that format. All the talk about winning/losing races on pit road and now it seems like NASCAR wants to take that part away from the pit crews. Sounds like NASCAR is trying to fix something that isn't broken. The Truck Series was my salvation last season because the Cup Series, well frankly, the Cup Series sucked most of the time. Anyhow, guess I'll just have to deal with any changes made by NASCAR.

 Shayne

[FS_Amy]

I have to say, I'm kind of getting a laugh over the idea of NASCAR mandating four-2 carriers and 2 changers because they're too dumb to remember there's no jackman...

[SMOKEN14]

I have to say, I'm kind of getting a laugh over the idea of NASCAR mandating four-2 carriers and 2 changers because they're too dumb to remember there's no jackman...

Maybe there gonna use the Craftsman Robot 

[KurtBuschFan]

No matter how many times I've seen that commercial, it's still one I'll stop to watch when I'm fast forwarding on the dvr.

[Chris]

I have to say, I'm kind of getting a laugh over the idea of NASCAR mandating four-2 carriers and 2 changers because they're too dumb to remember there's no jackman...

Yeah  . if you gonna have four... just as well off to have three...

Jackman , and one tire changer, and One carrier.. just let the pair fo them do the whole side..??
Makes about as much sense as four guys

[DougS]

from Jayski this morning

New rules from NASCAR to help teams with costs: With the goal being to preserve the competitive racing that the Camping World Truck Series is known for among race fans, while at the same time help teams save money; NASCAR has issued new rules for the 2009 season. A brief synopsis is a follows:
-- After March 25th, teams will not be permitted to compete in more than three consecutive events without running a sealed engine. [Meaning teams cannot run four races in a row without using an engine that has been previously run by an engine builder and sealed by NASCAR.] Once a team uses a sealed engine, the count starts over again. For example, a team owner may decide to run only two races before using a sealed engine; at that point, the three consecutive count starts over.
-- Team owners make the initial decision what race they want an engine sealed, and at the discretion of the NASCAR Competition Director, the engine will be sealed. Seals will be installed and removed by NASCAR officials only.
-- Teams will be limited to five over-the-wall pit crew members for pit stops, whether under green or yellow conditions. Teams will not be allowed to fuel and change tires during the same pit stop. Teams can stop any time, under green or yellow conditions, and perform anything they would normally do during a pit stop; they just will not be allowed to do gas and tires at the same time. At one point, competition cautions were considered, however limiting the number of over-the-wall crew members seemed a more viable option. As a result, pit strategy may prove to be in the mix during many races.
-- The crew chief must designate a maximum of twelve active crew members to attend each race. Active crew members include the crew chief, driver, spotter, plus nine other people actively turning wrenches on the truck. Team owners, public relations representatives, and guests are not included in the numbers.(1-30-2009)


First off, I'm upset that NASCAR has decided to experiment in thier most comptetive series. It's my opinion that this social experimentation should have been performed in the NNS where there is much more influnce from CUP teams with stable finances.

One step closer to spec engines! But for now we're going to save money because now your engine bulider have to build test and transport that engine to have a seal on it. Oh and if your sealed engine blows up you have to have a sealed engine in the hauler and there's going to be an additional cost that the engine builders will pass on due to transport to and from NASCAR and additional testing to ensure the engine will pass testing prior to being sealed. KHI even buy's thier engines, no inhouse engine shop. I'm not sure about the old BDR but I know all Toyota teams get major support from TRD.

Who thinks this stuff up?

The crew chief designates 12 people, who are they kidding, I can see nascar limiting 12 people with access credentials to the garage / pitstall. I'm just wondering what fee's access the owners / PR / Guest's, have to pay. I don't see NASCAR telling Kevin Harvick he can't come to the truck race at Daytona Texas Phoenix ect.

What defines a guest? Let's exclude potential sponsors?? How about returning vets that VFW Racing normally teams up with KHI? Are they excluded? Is a drivers parents now considered guest's?

5 over the wall personel: No fuel and tires on the same stop. Pit strategy will be become a bigger factor in the races overall. But as I stated earlier the driver will now have four oppertunities to speed on pit road. You'll have leaders pitting with lappers. I just hope that no one gets hurt. I think you'll see more than one pitmember hit by a truck this year on pitroad.

On the other thread that discussed salary caps the one resounding answer to control cost was for any team with a lower budget to win races and keep the sponsor money on an even keel by supply and demand. The only series that was able to do that was the truck series. So why is NASCAR experimenting in this series?

Fist time winners Donny Lia and Matt Crafton were definately under funded teams along with Dennis Setzer. Billy Ballew is an underfunded team but made the winners circle 3 times with an exceptional driver that's only paid race winnings (who probably will run an even more limited truck schedule because he's running a full NNS schedule).

[Chris]

I'm not gonna say I disagree with you in any form or fashion.
Certainly from eing involved in the CTS series for a couple years, I don't really see where this will help the under funded teams, by and large.  But I just want to throw out a couple thoughts

First off, I'm upset that NASCAR has decided to experiment in thier most comptetive series. It's my opinion that this social experimentation should have been performed in the NNS where there is much more influnce from CUP teams with stable finances.

One step closer to spec engines! But for now we're going to save money because now your engine bulider have to build test and transport that engine to have a seal on it. Oh and if your sealed engine blows up you have to have a sealed engine in the hauler and there's going to be an additional cost that the engine builders will pass on due to transport to and from NASCAR and additional testing to ensure the engine will pass testing prior to being sealed. KHI even buy's thier engines, no inhouse engine shop. I'm not sure about the old BDR but I know all Toyota teams get major support from TRD.
Well... no.  Just says the motor has to be SEALED... It's a long way from a sealed motor, to the same motor for everyone (crate motor)... But I know you are looking long range, so yeah it could come to that one day. 
The way I read this is that you can still have ANYONE build your motors in any way you want... then they just have to be sealed and raced that way.  A crate motor you buy off the floor and it's the same motor for everyone.
For the time being this is the ONLY place I might see where a under-funded team might get a little help by the rules.  High dollar teams can build new fresh motors every race.  Under-funded teams like we were, usually had to run the same motor 3 or 4 races in a row.  If the rule is written with the "intent" so that ALL the teams have to run motors 3 or 4 races before they drop in a new bullet, then obviously that helps the lower dollar teams.
Tricky part about running "Sealed" motors is it's only as honest as the racers... who we know will try anything.  I know several local racers who race on local tracks in a "sealed motor" truck or late model class.  It's no problem to get the motor builder to reproduce the seals to look exactly like they "original" seals.  They would open up their motors, work on them after every race, and 'seal' them back up.  Look like they never been opened.  If local racers can do it,... you know CUP teams, and machinist can.
 


Who thinks this stuff up?

The crew chief designates 12 people, who are they kidding, I can see nascar limiting 12 people with access credentials to the garage / pitstall. I'm just wondering what fee's access the owners / PR / Guest's, have to pay. I don't see NASCAR telling Kevin Harvick he can't come to the truck race at Daytona Texas Phoenix ect.
What defines a guest? Let's exclude potential sponsors?? How about returning vets that VFW Racing normally teams up with KHI? Are they excluded? Is a drivers parents now considered guest's?
Well actually a drivers or crew members parents or wives would have been considered a "guest" all along. SO that part I can't see as anything different. 
Getting access to the pits is different than having a crew member pass.  ANYONE can get a pit pass if they know who to ask and have them put down on the 'guest' list.  Being put down on the 'crew members' list is different.  That is generally filled out this time of year.  You have a whole sheet or two of info to fill out about yourself.  The normal stuff, name, etc.. Then any medcial conditions you may have or medications you are on... You get the point.  They want the name of a "fairly set" 12 list of folks who'll be working on the race car.
I really can't say what difference THIS is... of couse we never had 12 to take so any small team it (again) won't effect.  I would like to say in some way's somewhere it could make competition more equal... if for no other reason when a team had a major wreck and a high dollar team has a whole swarm of folks to work on the vehicle in the garage don't... Verses when a small team still has it's same few folks.  But There is no rule against teams "helping" other teams... so If I own a teams that has 3 trucks in the race,.. and one of them crashed,.. I'd EXPECT any of my 12 guys to go pitch in and help out on the damaged truck.   

5 over the wall personel: No fuel and tires on the same stop. Pit strategy will be become a bigger factor in the races overall. But as I stated earlier the driver will now have four oppertunities to speed on pit road. You'll have leaders pitting with lappers. I just hope that no one gets hurt. I think you'll see more than one pitmember hit by a truck this year on pitroad.
Hey... add additional pit road trips... that's for certain.  Come get tires,.. if it is a short track like Martinsville you MAY only have time to get right side tires,... then go out and come back and get left sides tires... then stop a third time for gas... And like you said... all this non-sense will lead to more loose tires on pit road,... someone could get hit because of traffic congestion, and get seriously injured.


On the other thread that discussed salary caps the one resounding answer to control cost was for any team with a lower budget to win races and keep the sponsor money on an even keel by supply and demand. The only series that was able to do that was the truck series. So why is NASCAR experimenting in this series?

Fist time winners Donny Lia and Matt Crafton were definately under funded teams along with Dennis Setzer. Billy Ballew is an underfunded team but made the winners circle 3 times with an exceptional driver that's only paid race winnings (who probably will run an even more limited truck schedule because he's running a full NNS schedule).

Well lets call a spade a spade... The truck series has ALWAYS been the red-headed step-child of NASCAR.  Been that way,.. always will be.  They get the crappiest schedules, race for the lowest pay, and have the most "last minute" changes made on them of the three series.  I know we raced at Daytona one season and the TRUCKS were the fastest vehicles down there.  Faster than the NNS and about a mph faster than even the CUP cars.
NASCAR kinda swallowed it all week, and the guys kept tuning and testing and the trucks kept getting faster.. finally on race day.. literally just HOURS before the race  NASCRAP issued a "technical statement" that effective for TODAYS race,.. only ONE 3" hose would be allowed to get air to the carburator.  (There was ALWAYS two 3" hoses and has been since)  SO all the teams had to seal off one of the openings in the grill and now they had 1/2 as much air going to the motor as they had all week.  Needless to say,.. no one knew what to do.  Motor builders didn't know what jets to use for the carbs, horsepower was cut WAY back... and NASCAR got what they wanted.  Their highly statured, grand popobahs of racing CUP stars ran the fastest speeds of the week when race time came.
ALL of course at the cost of 12 or so blown CTS motors...
Buy hey.  NASCAR didn't care, they're not paying the billl.  It's all about the show, and the impression.

[DougS]

Chris: High dollar teams can build new fresh motors every race.

My point about the engines is that (Not sure about Rousch) no one truck owner builds in house truck engines. With the sale of BDR you highest dollar team probably has to be KHI who buys his engines. All the toyota teams get thier engines from TRD who gets input from the different owners

RFR is only running the #6 this year for Colin Bruan. Not sure if it's RFR (east) aka Yates Racing power is under the hood.

So not real sure of any cost savings here, it's the progression to a crate or spec motor that bothers me and there doesn't seem like a cost saving in the truck series. It only adds to the cost of the builders which will still get passed on to owners.

Well NASCAR keeps making overall bad buisness decisions it's going to keep alienating fans which will dry up other sources of revenue.