Is Junior a great driver?

[falcon325]

OK, it's Saturday morning and I'm "multi-tasking" (playing on the computer when I'm supposed to be doing my honey-do list).  And things are getting WAY to dull in this lay-off week.  Time to stir up a small ruckus!   

Dale Earnhardt Jr. is clearly the most popular driver in Cup.  If you don’t believe the polls, just look at the stands.  Look at the commercials on TV.

But does he really deserve to be called a great driver?  He clearly isn't up to Gordon's level.  And Stewart is probably better.  But how would you compare Junior to Jimmie Johnson?  Or Kenseth?  Or Biffle?.  Or Harvick?  Or Kahne?   

Let’s hear it people.  Where does Junior rank as a driver? Whaddya think?

[Tonyfan14]

Well Jr is clearly not at the same level as Smoke and Jeff but than again no one else is except maybe JJ but I still think his crew chief has alot to do with that. I would also rank Matt K and Kevin above Jr. So I say Jr ranks maybe mid to bottom of the top 10 drivers in Cup. IMO of course.

[KurtBuschFan]

oh boy...this one could take all night....i'll be back after work cause I gotta go cook

and yall behave in here

[falcon325]

oh boy...this one could take all night....i'll be back after work cause I gotta go cook

and yall behave in here

Aww, KBF!  You trying to such all the fun outta this thread?  Off to the kitchen with you, woman!  (Shockey told me to say that.  Really.  He did.)

Anywho, here’s some more grist for the mill:

http://www.jayski.com/stats/alltimewins.htm

I didn’t realize Jeff Burton was ahead of Junior (with a few more years under his belt).

Kurt Busch and Matt Kenseth both have two fewer victories than Junior.  And one more championship apiece.

[Bubba]

This will have the few people who actually "know" me here shaking their heads, but here goes:

Dale Earnhardt Junior isn't a good or great driver, he's an AWESOME driver. If his father were alive and running that organization like it SHOULD be run, Jr. would have 2 if not 3 championships by now. It is my belief, (totally unsubstantiated of course) that the year he died, Dale Earnhardt and RCR were poised to win the 8th Championship, surpassing "King" Richard and at that point Dale would retire, run his team and mentor his drivers. Had that happened, not only would Junior have NOT had the extra pressure of being "god" put on him, he would have had dad dead in his ass pushing him and cars that were up to his talent level.

For example, look at his improvement on the road courses, one of his weakest areas when he moved up to Cup. While his finishes don't always reflect hiss skill as he gets wrecked out by other idiots often, his skill there has really improved. Dale Jarret has been racing for HOW long and STILL sucks at them?

I don't get the "if you like Jeff Gordon you have to like Jiminy johnson and hate Dale Jr" thing. Nor did I get the "like Gordon have to hate Dale Earnhardt thing, they were my two favorite drivers and actually still are, what is it, entering the 6th year since Dale ate the wall and it STILL doesn't seem like a race without him in it.  Much like the Bee Gee's in the seventies it has become "popular" to hate Junior. I understand that. But let's not deny the boy his driving talent, please. I "love to hate" Junior as much as the next person and will twist the tails of his mindless worshipers in a heartbeat, but the man CAN drive a car. His brother Kerry can't. DEI has given him (and their other drivers) crap equipment for several years, yet he STILL managed to make the top ten two out of three years.

falcon, he "only" won 17 races, tying him BTW with Curtis Turner? There are 129 other drivers on that list who would LOVE to say they "only' won 17 races their whole career. And LilboyJr's career is far from being over. Don't forget he won his rookie year and has won every year since. Not too shabby. Would he have more wins if he applied the chrome horn as often as his dad or Jeff Gordon? Hell yeah. But that's not his style.   

[PuglieseVT]

Yes, Dale Earnhardt Jr. is a great driver. He's won two Busch Series Championships, a Daytona 500, and was in contention for the championship through 2004 until his incident at Infineon, (and subsequent brain-fart at Atlanta) has 17 wins in 257 starts, 69 top 5s and 109 top 10s. He has won over $43 MILLION...dollars. I'd say he's getting it done just fine.

2005 was an abomination because he was driving Micheal Waltrips racecars, and didn't have Tony Jr. working with him. He's still one of the best drivers at a restrictor plate track regardless of how good the car is. DEI is going through a transition right now, as Jr. is the only driver left out of the original 2 that were there. Just because he isn't winning 8 races a year dosen't mean he's some stroker.

And I would take issue with the assertion that he isn't up to Jeff Gordon's level. He is every bit as talented as Jeff Gordon is. Jeff Gordon won the bulk of his races with Ray Evernham, driving better than awesome equipment. The IROC Series hasn't been to kind to Gordon either, and those are identicaly prepared cars.

[racin_girl72]

I think he is a great driver.  He's alot better than his equipment has been showing lately.  I agree with Bubba (even though he is a Tony basher) that if Dale Sr. was around Junior's performance/results would have been alot better.  But that is an entirely different thread itself!

[falcon325]

Yes, Dale Earnhardt Jr. is a great driver. He's won two Busch Series Championships, a Daytona 500, and was in contention for the championship through 2004 until his incident at Infineon, (and subsequent brain-fart at Atlanta) has 17 wins in 257 starts, 69 top 5s and 109 top 10s. He has won over $43 MILLION...dollars. I'd say he's getting it done just fine.

2005 was an abomination because he was driving Micheal Waltrips racecars, and didn't have Tony Jr. working with him. He's still one of the best drivers at a restrictor plate track regardless of how good the car is. DEI is going through a transition right now, as Jr. is the only driver left out of the original 2 that were there. Just because he isn't winning 8 races a year dosen't mean he's some stroker.

And I would take issue with the assertion that he isn't up to Jeff Gordon's level. He is every bit as talented as Jeff Gordon is. Jeff Gordon won the bulk of his races with Ray Evernham, driving better than awesome equipment. The IROC Series hasn't been to kind to Gordon either, and those are identicaly prepared cars.

>>2005 was an abomination because he was driving Micheal Waltrips racecars, and didn't have Tony Jr. working with him. He's still one of the best drivers at a restrictor plate track regardless of how good the car is. DEI is going through a transition right now, as Jr. is the only driver left out of the original 2 that were there. Just because he isn't winning 8 races a year dosen't mean he's some stroker.<<

First Bitter, the question I put before the group is not "Is Dale Junior some stroker?"  The question is "is Dale Junior a great driver."  You don't prove the second question to be true by rebutting the first.  And BTW, Junior has never won 8 races in a season.  In his best season, in 2004, he won 6 times (at 6 different tracks, which is impressive).

Second, I agree that Junior has suffered because of certain circumstances surrounding DEI.  By the same token he has benefited by others.  Had he been born a few years earlier, he might be having the same kind of career as his brother, Kerry.

>>And I would take issue with the assertion that he isn't up to Jeff Gordon's level. He is every bit as talented as Jeff Gordon is. Jeff Gordon won the bulk of his races with Ray Evernham, driving better than awesome equipment. The IROC Series hasn't been to kind to Gordon either, and those are identicaly prepared cars.<<

“Better than awesome equipment?”  Seven of Junior’s 17 wins, 7 have been on restrictor-plate tracks.  For a number of years, the sour joke in the garage area was:

Q: "How do you get a car through tech inspection at a restrictor-plate track?"

A: "Paint it red and put an 8 on it."

Of all the tracks out there, the restrictor-plate tracks are the one where a talented team and crew chief can make the difference.  After all, Michael Waltrip has won the Daytona 500 twice in DEI cars.

Little E has beefed up his driving credential in recent years by winning on short tracks as well as speedways.  But, there are still 14 tracks that he has never won at.  In 14 tries, he’s never won a road course.  And, in 12 chances, he has never won at Darlington.

 http://racing-reference.info/dtracks?id=earnhda02&series=W

Sorry Bitter, but the contention that Junior is every bit as talented a driver as Jeff Gordon flies in the face of the facts.

[Brian623]

I would say very good,but no great in this current group of Cup drivers. I would have Smoke, Jeff Gordon and Mark Martin( including his IROC, Busch and Truck success), as great, then Kenseth,Burton,Johnson, and Junior in the next tier. Just my opinion

[Speeddiva8]

I think the equipment is just messing up his chances.  If DEI was run better than it is now, then there would be some progress, I agree.

I can't say that JJ is on par with his car owner.  I think last season was luck and Chad Knaus' brilliance under the hood.

Just IMO...

[outtaget1]

Little  E  will  never  be....



Go Tony,,,  the  greatest REAL racer..  :-)

JS

[PuglieseVT]

For the record, I am prefacing these comments by saying that I am not a Jeff Gordon-basher. I'm using Gordon simply as a point of refference. And no, there are no #8 stickers on my car:




First Bitter, the question I put before the group is not "Is Dale Junior some stroker?"  The question is "is Dale Junior a great driver."  You don't prove the second question to be true by rebutting the first.  And BTW, Junior has never won 8 races in a season.  In his best season, in 2004, he won 6 times (at 6 different tracks, which is impressive).

>>>I was using the 8 wins as a general number, and the stroker comment as opposed to saying "good/average".  And yes, 6 wins at 6 different tracks is impressive in Nextel Cup. So using those statistics alone I believe shows that he should be considered great driver. Since 2000 Dale Jr. has won 17 races. Compartivley Jeff Gordon who is considered to be among the best ever, has won 26 races with a long established team. Also, Jeff Gordon has never had to sit out because he was injured. Jr. was driving hurt for 1/3 of the 2004 season after catching on fire. So using that.....I think they're pretty close.



Second, I agree that Junior has suffered because of certain circumstances surrounding DEI.  By the same token he has benefited by others.  Had he been born a few years earlier, he might be having the same kind of career as his brother, Kerry.

>>>>Dale Sr. could have just as easy put both of them in DEI cars. He picked Dale Jr. for a reason. The kid's special, he can drive a racecar, even if early on he wasn't that into it, and would have rather been changing oil at his dad's dealership. Besides, Sr. always said that Kelly was better than either one of them.




“Better than awesome equipment?”  Seven of Junior’s 17 wins, 7 have been on restrictor-plate tracks.  For a number of years, the sour joke in the garage area was:

Q: "How do you get a car through tech inspection at a restrictor-plate track?"

A: "Paint it red and put an 8 on it."

Of all the tracks out there, the restrictor-plate tracks are the one where a talented team and crew chief can make the difference.  After all, Michael Waltrip has won the Daytona 500 twice in DEI cars.

Little E has beefed up his driving credential in recent years by winning on short tracks as well as speedways.  But, there are still 14 tracks that he has never won at.  In 14 tries, he’s never won a road course.  And, in 12 chances, he has never won at Darlington.


>>>>Well, so now he's winning on short tracks and superspeedways. Doesn't that count for something? That kind of contradicts the argument. His dad didn't win on a roadcourse until 1995, and that's only because Mark Martin hit a patch of oil cresting the hill of the carousel turn at Sears Point on the last lap. He's only 32 years old and he's driving for a company who's owner is publically criticizing him and calling him out on the carpet for no apparent reason. He dosen't have the luxury of driving for an involved owner like Rick Hendrick, Jack Roush, or JD Gibbs. He also won 2 races in his rookie year, which many drivers have not done.

Also, and I think this is an important point, the cars Jeff Gordon was driving in the mid-late 90's were far and away better than anyone elses equipment. It wasn't nearly as close as it is today. In 1998 the Taurus and Grand Prix were running roughshod over everyone. Chevrolets were out to lunch on downforce tracks. The only car that could keep pace with them or beat them was the 24, and occasionally Terry Labonte. Ray Evernham being fined $50,000 for using some sort of spaceaged metal in the suspenion to lighten it. I'm guessing Joe Nemechek's cars didn't enjoy the level of engineering as Jeff Gordon did. Also, I will say again, in equalized IROC cars, Jeff Gordon always looked very, very average.





Sorry Bitter, but the contention that Junior is every bit as talented a driver as Jeff Gordon flies in the face of the facts.

>>>>I could go into a diatribe here about a documented history of running into people on the last lap, traction control (Indy 2001....watch his attempted burnout that resulted in 3 equally spaced chirp marks.....stops, pauses for a few seconds.....then magically it smokes them all the way down the straightaway), but I think you've already made your mind up about Junior. The cars are so much of a part of who wins and who loses today, that all of the guys out there to me look to be pretty much of equal talent and abillity. Both Jr. and Gordon missed the cut the same year, and Tony missed it last year. Maybe the COT will change that.


However saying that it flies in the face of facts is kind of like saying Global Warming science is 100% accurate. I have a freaking foot of snow in my  driveway this morning that says otherwise.    I guess I'll go shovel it now. Thanks city plow service for piling it a foot high in front my driveway too. That's really cool.

[falcon325]

Actually Bitter, while I don’t mind stirring up a little excitement on a dull day, the purpose of this thread is not to start an argument.   I think Dale Earnhardt Jr will play the key role in the future of NA$CAR.  He has legions of fans.  But they want to see him win.  Seeing him outside the top 40 after two races is probably making some suits in central Florida sh*t & go blind.  My question is a backward way of asking if Junior can claw his way back into it this year, and if he can produce enough wins and excitement to keep the Red Army tuned in and buying tickets?

A couple of years ago--I think it was 2005--my daughters and I took a couple of young ladies to their first Cup race.  Now with all the chatter about redneck fist-fights in the stands notwithstanding, I had never, ever seen a fight at a Cup race (granted, I never been to 'Dega).  I’ve always felt comfortable taking my daughters to races (of course, one of ‘em has a black belt in TKD, but still….).  That day, with us trying to introduce two girls to racing, there were two fights.  One was right behind us and one right in front of us. 

What struck me was that both involved Little E fans.   These young men had put on their red tees and hats, paid their hard-earned money, drank their Budweiser (apparently, more than they should have), and were ready to see Junior kick some serious tail.  Instead, from the drop of the green flag, he was junk (The more I think about it, it was 2005, ‘cause that was the year that the Great Crew-Chief-and-Car Swap took place.).  Those boys were not happy campers and it didn’t take a whole lot to get them swinging.  I don’t know how many of those Little E fans will keep watching and buying tickets if Junior is going to win one race a year and hope to wind up in the top ten.  This could be a pivotal year for Junior and for NA$CAR.

So what I am really looking for here are some serious thoughts on where Little E stacks up with regard to his contemporaries.  Flame has made the point that it is harder to win these days.  So can he claw back in to the Chase?  Can he win 3, 4, 5 races?

BTW, WRT the IROC series, IROC features--or, should I say, “featured”--identically prepared race cars.  There is no one set-up that all drivers like.  Some like a loose race car.  Others like one that is more balanced.  In fact, Jeff Gordon does not like JJ’s set-ups at all (way too loose).  Jeff’s IROC record proves little other than the identical set-up they put in those cars were not to Jeff’s liking. 

[Bubba]

Little  E  will  never  be....



Go Tony,,,  the  greatest REAL racer..  :-)

JS

Just what in the HELL is a "real racer"? One who won an INDY car championship in what, 10 races against 10 other fulltime drivers? One who won on "dirt"? Jeff Gordon is the record holder for being the YOUNGEST driver to win siver crown and whatever the hell sprinters have. He did one at the SAME time as being the Busch ROTY. While Jeff and smoked are of an age, they never raced each other in WoO, Smoked just wasn't good enough at that age to run with the big boys. Give that "real racer" **** a break already, REAL racers CAN race with the big boys when they are 17 and 18 years old, Smoked couldn't or didn't. Get informed or quit telling lies if you ARE informed. Jeff Gordon has been there and done that. He might have raced Indy if it were a series worth running at the time but it wasn't then and isn't now. As far as WoO? Jeff done it. and done it well. and done it while smoked was doing.......... well I just don't know exactly what in the hell he was doing, probably waiting for Jeff to move on so he could win.

[Checkeredflag]

Honestly, any driver who has won at the highest level of his profession is a great driver.

So much of a driver's performance is determined by the equipment they have to race that it's hard to compare.  Sure wins and/or championships are a scorecard, but they don't tell the full story.

I'm probably not putting this properly into words to convey what I'm saying, but unless they were running IROC cars with IROC engines, there is no way to tell whether he is a great driver or not.  Look at Penske and look at RCR - people were saying Ryan Newman was the greatest driver because he won all those fuel mileage races on hard tires.  As soon as there were changes to the tires and his gas mileage trick was gone, so was hearing about Ryan.  RCR dumped a ton of money into the program and got caught back up, and last year Burton and Harvick were able to shut up their critics, and put up some big numbers.

I do believe that Junior has that intangible quality that enables him to win, just like many other drivers out there.  He's won Busch championships, so he does know how to win a championship.  But, as to whether he has enough of that fire inside him to enable him to win a Cup championship is not something that any of us will know until he's either done so or retired without it.  And, we also don't know if the equipment DEI is putting on the track is championship caliber at this point  If it's not, we won't see greatness - no matter how great Junior may or may not be.  If it is, we'll see performance across the board, and whether Junior has that greatness in him or not.

But, in general, I do think Junior is in the upper echelon of today's drivers.