The Frontstretch: MPM2Nite: In It For The Long Hall by Matt McLaughlin -- Thursday April 19, 2012

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MPM2Nite: In It For The Long Hall

Matt McLaughlin · Thursday April 19, 2012

 

Last week NASCAR announced the 25 folks eligible for induction into this year’s Hall of Fame class. Five of those people will be enshrined next January. There were some notable names not on the list and there were some surprise inclusions as well. As always my email box was flooded with requests for my picks and people wanting to discuss the relative worthiness of various individuals. Many people felt someone obvious had been overlooked and some of them sensed conspiracies afoot.

Unfortunately a lot of fans simply don’t understand the criteria the nominating committee works with.

For drivers, a nominee must have been competing in NASCAR for at least ten years and he or she must have been retired for at least five years to be considered. For other participants in the sport there is the same ten year requirement but there’s no rule that they must be retired. That’s why Rick Hendrick and Richard Childress were included. (And I am certain one year soon Jack Roush will be included. So all you Ford zealots, no I don’t think Roush was excluded because he campaigns Fords. Ford’s money is just as green as GM’s and NASCAR is addicted to the stuff.) I will say that I felt it set a poor precedent to have two team owners still actively campaigning in the sport. This is supposed to be the Hall of Fame not a popularity contest. I’m sure if you ask them both Rick Hendrick and Richard Childress would tell you that their teams’ best days are still ahead of them. Both men are worthy of inclusion in the Hall one day, but let their stories play out and reach a conclusion before honoring them for a lifetime of achievement.

In answer to another question I get asked frequently, yes, Jimmie Johnson did win five Cup titles. (And Jeff Gordon won four.) But as noted above a driver must be retired for five years before being considered. Both Johnson and Gordon are shoo-ins for the Hall one day (presuming the Hall remains open) and I’m certain both will be inducted the first year they are eligible.

I’m also quite certain one day Bill Elliott will join the NASCAR Hall of Fame. But though he competes infrequently, Elliott is still listed as an active NASCAR driver. I know a lot of you still choose Bill as your favorite driver, but no he’s not being overlooked. It’s the same deal with Terry Labonte, another future Hall of Famer. One correspondent was enraged that Rusty Wallace was nominated though he won only one title while Labonte wasn’t included on the list. Until Labonte officially retires he can’t yet be nominated.

Awesome Bill will undoubtedly be a shoe in for the Hall of Fame — if he would ever retire.

Rusty Wallace being included as a potential nominee also brings up another issue: Wallace isn’t that old. If he were to choose to return to the Cup series even on a limited schedule basis would the Hall have to eject him? What a sorry mess that would be.

Two other names folks who wrote me frequently bought up include 1992 Winston Cup champion Alan Kulwicki and his contemporary Davey Allison. Yes, both men were tremendous race car drivers and individuals, and tragically we lost both of those heroes way too young. Davey Allison was a huge favorite of many fans and the heir to the Allison racing legacy. Kulwicki’s story is almost too Hollywood for Hollywood, the college educated engineer from Wisconsin who packed up his things and moved South to do battle with the sport’s big names on his own terms.

Davey Allison was certainly on his way to becoming every bit the legend his father was before he lost his life in a 1993 helicopter crash at Talladega. NASCAR Hall of Fame rules should be relaxed to allow his nomination.

Improbably Kulwicki did things his way with his tiny team and won that Cup title, the last true owner driver to do so.

Both Kulwicki and Allison run afoul of the minimum ten years racing requirement. (Well, if you fudge things a bit Allison did run one race in what is now the K&N West series back in 1980.) When I originally saw the minimum ten year participation award I just figured it was NASCAR’s way of seeing to it Tim Richmond, who’d they prefer you all forget since he had the audacity to sue them, never got into the Hall of Fame. Researching this article I stumbled across a bit of a surprise.

NASCAR did give itself a little wiggle room in regards to the ten year removed rule. The nominating rules state that in extraordinary circumstances, a nominee might be included despite failing to meet that requirement. Well in the case of Allison, Kulwicki, and Richmond, all three of them died while in the prime of their careers which I’d personally consider “extraordinary circumstances.” EIEC (Except In Extraordinary Circumstances) has long been a basis of the NASCAR rulebook. Basically they state, “this is the rule” but we uphold our right to ignore it out of expedience since we’re the only ones that can decide what is “extraordinary” and what is not. There are no rules. We decide what the rules are. And even then there are no rules. Except the ones we decide on.

Happily in this case that means that one day Allison and Kulwicki will make the Hall of Fame. Hopefully Tim Richmond will as well, but even as one of his most ardent and loyal fans I’m ready to admit it’s not Tim’s time quite yet.

He served as the inspiration for the movie, “Days of Thunder”, but Richmond’s battles with the NASCAR brass over allegations of drug abuse and his battle with AIDS will likely keep him out of Hall of Fame consideration – for the time being.

I guess what bothers me the most about this year’s list of nominees is a lot of fans simply don’t know who they are. In my mind I divide NASCAR history into two eras, pre-television and post-television. (Though these days it amuses me to hear people divide the sport’s history into Pre-Gordon and post-Gordon with the majority of fans being of the post-Gordon era.) Yes, Jeff Gordon has been racing in the Cup series for twenty years now, but there’s so much more to NASCAR’s rich history that preceded his era. There are so many colorful characters, so many competitors who full deserve the appellation “hero” and so many funny, tragic and bizarre stories too many of you have never heard about and only some of which can be told in polite company.

I’m not sure why so little is written about NASCAR’s history. Baseball fans know about players who died decades ago and can recount games played prior to World War II as if they happened last week. They’ll debate endlessly whether Babe Ruth could have hit a home run off of Sandy Koufax. Football fans can rattle off the teams that played in every Super Bowl, the final score and the MVPs of the game. The NFL juggernaut may have outgrown the tiny town of Green Bay many years ago, but fan’s appreciation of and devotion to the sport’s history keeps the Packers on the field.

Yet most NASCAR fans haven’t even heard stories about the days when the Flock brothers raced the Thomas brothers for countless wins. They have no idea how dominant the Buicks were in the early 1980s, much less the Hudsons or Chrysler letter cars were in their era. They don’t recall the tragic gut-wrenching 1964 season when four big name drivers were killed in barely over a year, which thankfully led to the advent of fuel cell and tire inner-liners. They probably don’t recall the Ford-Chrysler factory wars or the two boycott years, nor the PDA driver’s strike that eliminated most of the big name drivers from competing at the first Talladega race. The only major effort ever give a detailed history of NASCAR racing was Greg Fielden’s five book series, Forty Years of Stock Car Racing, a superlative set of books I recommend to any true fan of the sport.

You can’t appreciate where stock car racing is now until you understand its humble roots.

So if I were on the voting panel which five individuals would I choose? To me four names are obvious; Herb Thomas, Buck Baker. Tim Flock and Joe Weatherly. These are the only multi-time retired champions in NASCAR’s top divisions yet to be inducted into the Hall.

Thomas won 48 races in just 228 starts in NASCAR’s top division then known as Grand National racing. He won 12 races in both 1953 and 1954. Thomas was the series champion in both 1951 and 1953. He was runner-up in the championship chase three times; in 1952, 1954 and 1956. Unfortunately Thomas’s story doesn’t have a happy ending; this is one of those ugly stories that you don’t hear too often.

In 1956 Thomas was well en-route to a third title deep into the season. He’d started that season driving for the dominant team of the era owned by Carl Kiekhaefer. After a falling out, the driver and team owner split after a race at Spartanburg, SC. Kiekhaefer was determined to take that year’s title to exact revenge against Thomas. Believe it or not, Kiekhaefer was allowed to add an extra event to the schedule late in the season to give his driver Buck Baker another shot at outrunning Thomas. During that race at Shelby, NC, another of Keikhaefer’s drivers put Thomas hard into the fence to eliminate him from contention.

The wreck almost cost Thomas his life and did in fact effectively end his racing career.

Buck Baker was bigger than life and twice as real. He won his two championships in 1956 and 1957. Obviously that ‘56 title was a bit tainted but when I attended his driving school, Baker swore to me that he didn’t know about the setup to hurt Thomas — a good friend of his. Baker said that if he had, he wouldn’t have allowed it – and I believe him.

From 1953 to 1959 Baker finished in the top 5 in Grand National points and he was runner-up in those standings in 1955 and 1958. Baker won 46 races in NASCAR’s top division, fourteen of them in 1956 alone. How different were things back then? Baker would later admit he used to sneak beers into his car to enjoy during hot afternoon races. After retiring Baker eventually started his own stock car racing school that gave both aspiring drivers (Jeff Gordon was a graduate) and curious fans a chance to take laps at the wheel of a stock car. Buck is also the father of Buddy Baker, a noted racer in his own right who went on to become one of the most entertaining NASCAR TV announcers ever in his day. And yes, I think Buddy should join his dad in the Hall one day, preferably while he’s still alive and kicking and able to reduce those in attendance to mirthful tears with some of his stories.

Joe Weatherly was NASCAR’s crown prince — a hard-driving, hard-partying legend. He and good pal Curtis Turner staged some epic parties, and if you missed one, well, as they said the next one would be starting in fifteen minutes. Weatherly won his titles back to back in 1962 and 1963, and in that era few drivers chose to compete in every Grand National race. (It was impossible, with over 50 races on the schedule, some of them run on the same day.) Weatherly ran 52 of 53 races in 1962 and 53 of 55 races in 1963. In 1963 Weatherly’s primary ride was Bud Moore’s Mercury but Moore was only running the major events. Hoping to defend his title Weatherly drove for no less than nine teams that season to rack up the maximum amount of points.

Throughout his career Weatherly amassed 25 Grand National wins with the majority of them (nine each season) in 1961 and 1962. He also won twelve races in NASCAR’s old convertible division and was runner-up in series points in that division in 1957. Few people may remember any of those stats and even fewer of them will recall Weatherly was perhaps the most superstitious man ever to walk the face of the Earth. In fact Weatherly flat out-refused to run the 13th Southern 500 due to his Triskaidekaphobia. In order to lure Weatherly into that race Darlington track promoters officially billed the event as “The 12th Renewal of the Southern 500.”

Unfortunately Weatherly’s story doesn’t have a happy ending either. He was killed during the fifth race of the 1964 Grand National season at the road course in Riverside, CA. Weatherly refused to use a shoulder belt feeling that it would hinder his efforts to escape a burning car after a wreck. Thus when he hit an embankment at Riverside, his head exited the car and hit the berm, killing him instantly.

My fourth nominee would be Tim Flock, one of the three famous racing Flock brothers. Flock won his titles in 1952 and 1955. He won a total of 39 Grand National races in just 187 starts, giving him the highest winning percentage of any driver of any era in NASCAR history. I don’t know what baseball player had the highest ever batting average but I’d bet he’s enshrined at Cooperstown. (Ed. Note — resident Detroit Tigers fan Vito Pugliese is proud to confirm that Ty Cobb holds the all-time batting average record at .366 lifetime.) In 1955 Flock won 18 races, more than any driver in a single season other than the King in 1967.

Unfortunately despite those two titles and all those race wins, Flock’s total career earnings totaled about $100,000. In a sad irony during the start-up to NASCAR’s big 50th anniversary bash in 1998, Flock was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Without medical insurance he was reduced to penury and had to sell off most of his cherished racing memorabilia including his trophies to pay his bills. Throughout the ordeal Flock never lost his sense of notorious sense of humor. He recalled watching the 1997 NASCAR awards banquet when Jeff Gordon unexpectedly broke down crying while accepting that big championship check from Winston.

To quote Mr. Flock, “When I saw the amount of that check I was crying as well.”

To me those four men ought to definitely be included. After that the final choice gets more difficult. I am loathe to exclude anyone on the list but in the end you have to choose just one more of a worthy group.

After much consideration I’ll give my final nod to Fred Lorenzon.

“Fast Freddie” as he was known, never won a NASCAR title. The highest he ever finished was third in the points in 1963; newer fans need to be mindful that Lorenzen never ran the complete Grand National schedule. As a factory driver for Ford he only ran the big events that gave Ford Motor Company some hope of getting some ink and glory in the newspapers. In 1963 Lorenzen ran 29 races, and won six of them (over 20 percent) and finished within the top 5 in 21 of those races (about 73 percent.)

If those aren’t Hall of Fame numbers, I don’t know what would be.

I’m torn by not choosing Benny Parsons (1973 Cup champion and one of the great race broadcasters of all time with his folksy down to earth style) or T. Wayne Roberts, who along with Winston helped not only save this sport, but imprinted it on the national consciousness after the car makers withdrew from racing in the early 1970s. I’d choose those two men along with Alan Kulwicki, Davey Allison and Tim Richmond as my new nominees for the class of 2013.

I realize not everyone is going to agree with my five choices for this year’s class. After all, the five drivers I’ve chosen all competed in the 1950s and early 1960s, decidedly before the advent of television embracing NASCAR. That might seem to be a problem to some but not in my mind. Isn’t that the purpose of any Hall of Fame? In addition to entertaining guests the Hall ought to edify and inform them about the part of the story they missed. It ought to shed some light on a sport that used to make young men dead before they were old, not young men rich before their time.

As always I present my opinions as just what they are…opinions. Please feel free to nominate or exclude your favorite or least favorite candidates in the comments section below.

Contact Matt McLaughlin

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babydufus
04/19/2012 08:50 AM
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i appreciate the thought and enjoyed the read,,, but isn’t this much ado about nothing… hasn’t nascar already overstepped it’s perceived popularity by creating the hall in the first place and continued down the road by making made the hall pretty irrelevant. if nascar actually needed a hall shouldn’t it be about the competitors and not the administrators as you’ve said?

The Mad Man
04/19/2012 09:30 AM
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Curiously missing from the list is NASCAR’s first multi-time championship crew chief. The man who coined the term “NASCAR”, actually founded NASCAR in Georgia, and was one of the founding fathers of NASCAR. Red Vogt. Another name curiously missing was his understudy and apprentice Smokey Yunick. Why haven’t they been added to the list much less inducted? Their contributions to NASCAR far exceed those of a bookkeeper and ticket seller.

Greg Maness
04/19/2012 11:12 AM
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You named the exact same drivers as I. As for Rusty Wallace coming out of retirement, Gordie Howe retired from hockey after 1971 season and was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1976. In the interim he had come out of retirement to play with his sons in the World Hockey Association. With the merger of the NHL and the WHA for the 79-80 season, Gordie was active with the Hartford Whalers and played that one final season (in the NHL)being both active AND a member of the hall of fame! So, there is precedent!

just talking
04/19/2012 11:32 AM
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“babydufus” above hit it on the head – Nascar overstepped. After the first and second tier there is very little all but the most ardent fans know.

Nascar needs to stop thinking it can be baseball or football just because they want to be. There are hundreds of really good baseball players that last 15-20 years. The fans have ample time to remmeber them, and talk about them. These players are on teams that the fans watch, rally around, talk about, etc. Baseballfans watch these players and teasm for years and years.

Nascar is not at that level. Again – I know there are die hard Nascar fans. A die hard Nascar fan is probably the most die hard of all fans. (I will never forget the Gordon dolls with pins in them at Martinsville.) But there are very few of them next to baseball and football. I am not putting Nascar or its fans down, but this is just fact.

A hall of fame was just a France ego trip.

A Nascar race can be a terrifically exciting event – the race, the noise, the fun, the passion – just incredible. I will match it to any stick and ball sport – including playoffs. But Nascar needs to let the fans have the sport that they want – not the sport that Nascar wants or thinks it should be.

Sean
04/19/2012 01:32 PM
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I agree that the legends from the earliest years of NASCAR should be in first. While I agree that Allison, Kulwicki, and Richmond should be in, I don’t think it should be THAT soon when there are so many legends from the past missing.

No way I would take Allison, Kulwicki, or Richmond over ANY of the following:

Buck Baker
Tim Flock
Bobby Isaac
Fred Lorenzen
Cotton Owens
Benny Parsons
Fireball Roberts
Herb Thomas
Curtis Turner
Rusty Wallace
Joe Weatherly
Leonard Wood (really, it should be the Wood Brothers inducted together)

Bill Elliott
Jeff Gordon
Jimmie Johnson
Mark Martin
Tony Stewart (if they become eligible when one of those three are not in)

I admire that you’ve given Allison, Kulwicki, and especially Richmond a lot of attention, but I think everyone in the media hypes them up a bit beyond their actual accomplishments and a lot of other contemporary drivers who didn’t win titles get completely ignored. Neil Bonnett? He died too and it seems like nobody EVER talks about him. Geoff Bodine? Harry Gant? Ernie Irvan? Ricky Rudd? I think most of those guys were at least as talented as Davey Allison, and even THEY have been completely forgotten, much more than those three who are talked about all the time on the anniversaries of their deaths. Kulwicki and Richmond were very impressive, and I probably would take them over Bodine, Irvan, and Rudd, but I’d definitely take Harry Gant before Kulwicki – I think his equipment was even worse than Kulwicki’s! I’m certainly not saying Bodine, Irvan, or Rudd deserve consideration NOW, but I think they were in the same league as Kulwicki and Davey talent-wise (albeit a bit behind Richmond), and nobody discusses them at all. Hell, nobody’s even discussing earlier NASCAR legend Rex White. I know nobody agrees with me but I think Irvan was a better driver than Davey because his performances in the #28 from the day he entered to his 1994 Michigan crash were better than ANY of Davey’s seasons. Harry Gant was better than ANY of the contemporaries mentioned too. I’d also take Bill Elliott and Mark Martin when they become eligible over Davey, Alan, or Tim. Again, I’m glad they’re getting attention. I’m a fan of all three, and I hate that they died when they did, but it seems like they’re the ONLY non-champions before 2000 that anybody even talks about now. It’s like the polar opposite of how NASCAR snubs Tim Richmond, and I just think it’s weird. I feel much more sorry for Neil Bonnett who NEVER has myriads of posts made on the anniversary of his death, solely because he wasn’t in his prime when he died. To me, guys like Fireball Roberts, Curtis Turner, and Joe Weatherly are FAR greater and died really young, yet nobody has posts commemorating them every year. Love those three drivers and they all belong in eventually, but I think the hype on the anniversaries of their deaths has gotten a bit too much.

So do Allison, Kulwicki, and Richmond deserve it? Totally. Do they deserve it THIS SOON? No, I don’t think so. The ’50s/‘60s legends above HAVE to be in first, and Elliott/Gordon/Johnson/Martin/Stewart have all done enough to trump them as well. As for the other non-champions I mentioned; yes, I probably would take Kulwicki and Richmond over most of them (I think Davey has actually become supremely overrated now that people talk about him SINCERELY as “the guy who would have stopped Jeff Gordon” – I’m not seeing it and I think his talent was at best at the Mark Martin level and I really don’t think he would have won a title…‘92 was the only year he was close and that’s because the Fords were overwhelmingly dominant and no one else was consistent…I also think he’s overrated because he was the ONLY driver between Earnhardt and Gordon who had equipment theoretically capable of winning as a rookie, when guys like Gant, Irvan, Kulwicki, Martin, Richmond, Wallace, even Jarrett had to spend several years driving garbage), but it just bothers me nobody ever talks about them even though they were contemporaries, usually retired later, and had performances more impressive than (say) Terry Labonte who people hype just because he won two REALLY lame titles due to that atrocity of a points system that reflects consistency way more than it should. I want to see people kicking ass and taking names in the hall of fame, even if they weren’t consistent. In other words, somebody like Irvan who drove hard every lap and hit higher heights even if he hit lower lows over Terry Labonte, or somebody like Kyle Busch over Matt Kenseth. Now Allison, Kulwicki, and Richmond? They certainly did kick butt a lot, and I’d totally take them over Labonte too, so that is not my argument against them now. But as for Terry, is ANYONE impressed by Terry or Kenseth’s titles? Does ANYONE think they were the best drivers those years? Another thing I do rate highly is whether somebody was ever the dominant force on a particular type of track (except plate tracks which are total garbage). Terry was never considered THE MAN anywhere or even any period of time. He was capable of having a good run lots of places, sure. But I can’t imagine there was ever a time anyone was afraid of him or considered him THE MAN TO BEAT. Gant for a while (in his a 4-in-a-row streak especially) was considered THE FORCE on short tracks, Irvan was considered THE MAN on road courses and arguably everywhere until his injury (no, road course dominance is not enough by itself – I’m not intending to induct Robby Gordon or Marcos Ambrose). Titles are overrated. Dominance and running up front should be rewarded regardless of titles. Fireball Roberts and Tim Flock are the two GLARING omissions to me because they kicked butt everywhere more than anyone not inducted.

I can’t believe anyone would actually suggest Terry Labonte over Rusty Wallace. Rusty was the MAN on short tracks for over a decade for the most part, is one of the top ten winners, and was the #2 driver from 1986-1995. Is there ANY 10-year period where you could rank Terry as second? I can’t think of a 10-year period where you could rank Terry better than seventh maybe… While I might take somebody like Bonnett or Gant that I think is way more underrated than Allison/Kulwicki/Richmond (whom I almost see as overrated now because they get talked about WAY TOO MUCH relative to drivers who were just as good but didn’t have tragedies – or even those who did like Bonnett and Irvan), I would take almost anyone mentioned here over Terry. Terry is one of the weakest champions in the modern era, ahead of only his brother, and maybe Dale Jarrett, Matt Kenseth, and Kurt Busch in my mind. It blows my mind that somebody would take him over Rusty due to the one additional title. I think the 30 additional wins trumps that!

As for the five I’d pick this year, I’m going to do it NASCAR style. They’re NEVER going to just take five drivers. They SHOULD for the next two or three years I think, but they’ll throw in a crew chief, car owner, promoter, or whoever each of those years. I HOPE Anne France never gets in. That’s one I don’t buy. I think I might take Felix Sabates or Ward Burton over her, and I WOULDN’T TAKE THEM.

My picks for 2013:

Buck Baker
Tim Flock
Fireball Roberts
Herb Thomas
Wood Brothers (together – WHY would you nominate them separately? They’d already be in if they were nominated together)

My picks for 2014:

Fred Lorenzen
Cotton Owens
Benny Parsons (doesn’t deserve it this soon on driving stats alone but when you throw in his broadcasting, I’ll agree on this)
Curtis Turner
Joe Weatherly (not this year – Lorenzen and Turner are his peers to me, Baker/Flock/Roberts/Thomas are his predecessors – he belongs in with Lorenzen and Turner in my book)

My picks for 2015:

Red Byron OR Rex White (can’t decide)
Ray Fox OR Raymond Parks (can’t decide)
Bobby Isaac
Rusty Wallace
Smokey Yunick (not nominated yet? Come on!)

I could see picking Allison, Kulwicki, or Richmond in 2016 or later, but definitely not all three of them together, and I’d personally want to see Gant and Bonnett first, since they predated them. I probably would take all three of them over Buddy Baker, another guy I see as overrated, so I agree with you there. Maybe I just don’t support second-generation drivers in general enough, as I think Davey Allison, Buddy Baker, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., and Dale Jarrett ALL get more hype than they warrant.

Terry Labonte? Sure, in ten years, but there are a LOT of people I want to see first.

Oh, and I think they should have rendered most of these discussions moot by inducting 10-20 people in the first class. Most Halls of Fame have really large classes, and taking both Frances over David Pearson seemed wrong to me in day one (they should have had a larger class to accommodate all of them).

As for the Hall of Fame being a France ego trip, there are sports with much lower status in the US that have Halls of Fame – bowling, ice skating, and volleyball for instance. THAT doesn’t bother me. Perhaps calling it a NASCAR Hall of Fame does bother me since most of the time the sanctioning body does not name the Hall of Fame after itself, so there’s that. Another thing is that the laughably biased International Motorsports Hall of Fame has way too many NASCAR drivers relative to those from other series (Formula One, IndyCar, sports cars, drag racing, etc…, etc… all get short shrift). I kind of viewed the IMHOF AS the NASCAR HoF for many years, so in a sense this is redundant.

I hope the NASCAR HoF doesn’t follow the IMHoF’s mistake in inducting Junie Donlavey. Hell of a nice guy, but one win over 40 years does not a Hall of Fame career make (and the IMHOF inducting Donlavey over his far more successful contemporary Bud Moore seems ludicrous).

GinaV24
04/19/2012 01:41 PM
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Excellent article, Matt. IMO, NASCAR should have 2 lists one for the pre-TV era and one for the post-era and nominate 5 from each of them. Plus let NASCAR images put together some real programming about the pre-TV years (I’m sure they can do it – heck I’ve seen footage of the races on the beach at Daytona)and highlight those people’s talents. Then induct 10 per year, 5 from each list.

That way, you’d get the people in who are more familiar to the current fan base AND also induct deserving people who might not be as familiar.

I’ve read a lot of books about the history of NASCAR but not everyone enjoys that sort of thing. Speed used to run a tv program where the drivers sat and talked about things that had happened when they raced – it was fun to listen to and you could learn a lot too.

Joe..
04/19/2012 03:42 PM
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Great read Matt. Sean, wow,nice.