The Frontstretch: Side By Side: Should Kyle Busch And Carl Edwards Have Been Penalized? by Phil Allaway and Vito Pugliese -- Thursday August 28, 2008

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Side By Side: Should Kyle Busch And Carl Edwards Have Been Penalized?

Phil Allaway and Vito Pugliese · Thursday August 28, 2008

 

Editor’s Note : The following is a special edition of Frontstretch’s Side By Side. Occasionally throughout the season, two of your favorite Frontstretch writers will duke it out in a debate concerning one of NASCAR’s biggest stories. Don’t let us be the only ones to speak our minds, though… be sure to read both sides and let us know what you think about the situation in the comment section below!

Today’s Question: Following Saturday’s on-track altercation after the race between Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards, NASCAR chose to penalize both drivers for their transgressions. On Wednesday, they announced the two men would be put on probation for six straight races — although they determined there’d be no fines or loss of points for either of them. Did the sport stop short by not producing a harsher penalty? Or should Busch and Edwards have never been penalized at all?

The Penalties Didn’t Go Far Enough — For Kyle Busch
Phil Allaway

On Wednesday, NASCAR placed Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch, the top two drivers in the Sprint Cup point standings, on probation for the next six races for their antics on Saturday night. At first glance, the sheer equality of the penalties itself is what seems to be the most unfair. Sure, Edwards pulled the bump and run on Busch to start this whole mess; but that was relatively minor compared to Busch’s inappropriate reaction.

While the move wasn’t “clean” racing, any typical driver in Busch’s shoes should have simply taken it like a man and just went about their business. It’s not like Edwards’ bump on lap 470 resulted in Busch crashing — he still finished a strong second, and had enough time to run Edwards back down if only his car was handling as good. Historically, this type of maneuver is typical at Bristol — even with the new repaving job — and the point leader should have expected something like this. But instead of taking it all in stride, Busch decided to essentially ram Edwards after the checkered flag in a display of petulance not seen in the Sprint Cup Series in quite awhile. It was the motorsports equivalent of throwing a hissy fit — and Busch should have paid for it.

But instead, he’s on “probation” — a penalty that doesn’t really, well, have you “paying” for anything. I am generally not in agreement with these probation penalties to either driver, due to the fact that they’re kind of empty on the surface. As we’ve seen so many times before, being put on probation in NASCAR is akin to being told, “Don’t do that again.” It is less than or equal to a slap on the wrist, one with little to no backbone behind it that doesn’t really do much of anything for anyone. Based on what I’ve seen from NASCAR over the past few years, it’s actually debatable whether penalties levied to drivers on probation are any stricter than those given to drivers not on probation. If you’re going to penalize the drivers, penalize them legitimately by some sort of tangible consequence. Hit them in the wallet, hard — with the edict that the fine comes directly from their personal bank accounts instead of letting the teams pay the fines for the drivers.

Carl Edwards was never called into a meeting with NASCAR officials to even explain his role in a post-race incident at Bristol; does that make his sudden probation unfair?

As for this specific incident, you could make the argument that Edwards started this whole conflict with the slight bump of the No. 18 on lap 470. However, Busch was clearly the aggressor afterwards. Yes, Edwards eventually spun out Busch after he became tired of Busch’s antics — but everyone has a breaking point in these types of situations. Busch probably acted more inappropriate than Edwards did here, and should have been punished more. NASCAR’s opinion, based on their decision, seems to be that both drivers’ actions were equally inappropriate — but probation? That’s not going to stop them from doing it again.

Based on the facts shown here, and my personal beliefs on NASCAR intervention in these conflicts, I don’t think Edwards should have been punished to begin with. However, Busch needed a harsher penalty for his actions, such as a fine. Past precedent shows that intentionally spinning someone out on pit road after the race will get a driver a fine of approximately $10,000 and a probationary period. Since this occurred on the track, where no people (outside of race cars) were, I would think a smaller fine right out of Busch’s pocket would suffice — five thousand bucks, paid, before he is allowed entrance to the infield at Auto Club Speedway. That would send a message that this behavior will not be tolerated by drivers in the future, and connect it to the appropriate punishments inflicted by such behaviors in the past.

So, We Can’t Even Bump Into Each Other At Bristol Now?
Vito Pugliese

Earlier this week, I was going to write about how whether or not Kyle Busch vs. Carl Edwards was the rivalry that NASCAR needed — and it seems to be working. Their mutual dust up following the completion of the Sharpie 500 last weekend at Bristol served to ignite the fires in a vain attempt at injecting some much needed excitement in what has been a very beige, boring, and bland season. During Edwards’ victory lap, Busch ran up into the side of him a couple of times, and Edwards responded by turning down the track and spinning Busch out at what appeared to be a teeth-sucking 45 mph.

As a result, Kyle Busch was summoned to the officials’ trailer, but not before he got in his digs on Edwards with a Mr. Ed quote heard around the NASCAR world. Following Edwards’ unapologetic remark that all he would do differently next time is hit him harder, both were slapped with a six-race probation. Considering the broad scope of the incident, some are wondering if the penalties were not harsh enough.

Are you kidding?

The contact between Busch and Edwards was about the only remarkable thing about that 3.5-hour snoozefest over the weekend at Bristol. What once was the most exciting and anticipated race of the year had degenerated into little more than Michigan on concrete. There were all of five lead changes among three drivers, and Busch and Edwards combined to lead 499 laps. Competition, this isn’t. If we can’t have cars that don’t look like one another, is it too much to ask to have races that have some different aspects and attributes to them instead?

Part of NASCAR’s goal for the 2008 season was to “get back to their roots.” If getting back to you roots means a lead change once every two hours at Bristol, then spare me. But if it means letting guys rough each other up a little bit at the track that was once synonymous with, “rubbin’s racin,” then by all means, have at it! The whole point of Bristol used to be about settling old scores, getting back at a guy who did you wrong three weeks ago, beating, banging, and close short track racing. Had it not been for the Bristol of old, the term “rattle his cage” would never have been thrust into our racing lexicon, Jimmy Spencer and Kurt Busch would have never enjoyed their two year long feud, and Rusty Wallace would have never chucked a water bottle at Dale Earnhardt, Sr.

With that in mind, the whole concept of penalties for these two’s post-race antics are pretty silly if you think about it. Is this really what NASCAR has become? What once was an underground sport, whose most compelling and endearing quality was that it was politically incorrect and unabashedly proud of it, has devolved into a tit-for-tat festival of rules and regulations? “Oh no, someone’s radio chatter picked up a curse word! We must fine them! That driver gave that guy the finger, he should be put on probation! There is a scuffle in the pits, everybody is suspended for this race weekend! WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!!!”

Please, just stop. Stop the madness.

I still have a souvenir Cup from a trip to Thunder Valley with my buddy Ryan back in 2000. It clearly states, “Bristol: Racin’ The Way It Oughta Be!” Well for God sakes, let them race, run into each other, beat, bang, and rough each other up a little bit. Why does everything need to be fined, policed, or patrolled? The golden rule is alive and well in auto racing more so than anyplace else. Thankfully, unlike many things, NASCAR gets this, and is at least letting this pass with little more than an innocuous “probation” period of six races…whatever that means. Hopefully, this act of logic and common sense is not their only use of good judgment for 2008. This season is in dire need of some excitement, and if the best track on the circuit can’t give it to us — we need a rivalry that can.

Contact Phil Allaway
Contact Vito Pugliese

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Brian France Sucks
08/28/2008 07:58 AM
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Johnny Benson was chuckling somewhere on Saturday night and became a big Carl Edwards fan. Kyle Busch is a punk who can’t take it like he dishes it out.

Douglas
08/28/2008 08:06 AM
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Just more moronic NA$CRAP
“logic”!!

First, it is alright to slam a competitor out of the way and collect 100’s of thousands of dollars, and the points that go along with winning! And thus endangering the 41 other drivers/cars still racing behind them, BUT!

It is not alright to give a guy a “doughnut” AFTER the race is over and no other cars are involved!

HUH?

The Old Guy
08/28/2008 08:10 AM
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Penalties didn’t go far enough?

C’mon, it’s racing, it was bristol, it was tempers, it was emotion and it didn’t happen on pit road.

There shouldn’t even have been probabtion.

I enjoy the sport of racing even with all of the changes. But, it seems you modern day fans, and journalists/editorialists, want racing to be squeaky clean.

forget it and get over it.

Steve M.
08/28/2008 08:11 AM
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Personally, I’m getting sick and tired of NASCAR’s rules (or lack there-of) and there hasn’t been a good race all season long. Rivalries? What rivalries? Carl Edwards and Matt Kenseth seem to respect one another on the track after their incident last year. JPM used to spin or wreck someone in just about every race; now he drives as mousey as the rest of the field. The only driver who’s actually racing is Shrub, and I can’t stand the guy, but at least he’s racing. The fact that Edwards is stepping up to the plate and racing him instead of worrying about the precious Chase points has been a nice change of pace. My point to this is, I don’t believe a word that NASCAR says. If Shrub deliberately puts Edwards (or anyone else for that matter) into the wall in the next six weeks, what is NASCAR going to do to him? He’s on probation so will they sit him out a race? Park him on pit row for 2 laps. Fine him 150 – 200 points? No, they won’t do one damned thing. That’s why I’m sick and tired of NASCAR. Oh, I’ll still watch the races because I enjoy the sport, but I’m over all the political bull that we, the fans, have to endure because NASCAR management is afraid that a sponsor will get upset if their driver has to sit out a race and money might be lost. So continue on as you’re doing because nothing is going to change except for my attitude; meaning one of these weekends, if things don’t get better, I’ll be changing the chanel on my tv.

Johnboy60
08/28/2008 08:58 AM
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wow Douglas! “slam a competitor out of the way” You must have been watching Indy cars. Edwards just tapped him. I only wish he would have put the little punk into the wall. I also hope he tries to mess with Carl so he gets a big a** whipping. It seems that is the ONLY thing that the bush family understands!

Jeff G
08/28/2008 09:02 AM
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“The Old Guy” said it all. Let them race!! Believe you me, if any driver gets “too far” out of line the others will take care of him.

Brian Vickiz needs noogies
08/28/2008 09:25 AM
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A $5000 fine is nothing to these guys. That won’t send a message. Plus, who cares anyway?

For sponsors and such, NASCAR has to make the case they are trying for safety, so yeah they should summon people to the hauler, but that’s about it.

Probation is fine. It satisfies those dumb enough to be worried about the race and post-race antics.

Callaway
08/28/2008 11:31 AM
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Get set boys and girls by rushing these younger kids into Cup you will see more and more of these fits of anger and juvenile behavior on the track. It’s not really their fault either, they are not being seasoned to the demands of what is required of a professional and I don’t mean quarter midgets, go cart or legend cars that seat time it simple does not equate to a Cup car inside or out of the car. If you have a younger driver in your house your insurance agent has most likely explained that’s why your rates just rocketed through your roof…lack of experience behind the wheel, less mature decisions made. Until Nascar quits looking for the next great phenom to promote and let’s these kids spend more time in the feeder series this will become the norm. Anyone here think that Joey Lagano is really ready to inherit the Home Depot car based on what he’s done in the Nationwide series or is Gibbs in a tight spot with Smoke leaving and had to do something to appease the sponsor? Let them grow into these rides season up and let their professional demeanor catch up with their talent level then you have a compete driving package. Quite frankly what happened at Bristol Saturday night was a laugh considering it used to happen 20 or 30 times a race and Nascar let it be settled by the drivers either during the race or afterward in the garage. The drivers can police themselves pretty well without the heavy hand of Nascar muddling something else up.

Marty C
08/28/2008 01:05 PM
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Well put Callaway. You just hit the nail squarely on the head!

HankZ
08/28/2008 01:09 PM
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I agree with Vito, and voted “No on Both Accounts”.

The Edwards and Busch (newly) rivalry is exactly what this stinkin sport needs right now. And it comes on the heels of the plea that the sanctioning body requested before the season started. They requested that these boys “get back to their roots” of driving and “showing emotion”.
Their latest probation spew is just a juvenile slap in the face of what they said they wanted for the season. The only reason horse-face and shrub were put on probation was to send a message to the other 41 drivers. They, Nascar, HAD to flex their muscles (because they’ve been doing it for so long now it has become the norm).

Dennis
08/28/2008 01:13 PM
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Much ado about nothing.

Edwards pulled off a nice move that did not wreck Busch. Busch would have done the same if given the chance but I think Edwards would have been in the wall.

If you look at the whole incident Busch bumped him a few times while giving Edwards the stink eye and probably the 1 finger salute. SO WHAT.

Then they both came up to 2 cars that were on the track and Lil’ Busch had to make more room. SO WHAT.

Then as he moved away Edwards spun him, by hitting the “Passenger” side. SO WHAT.

NA$CAR should be giving them side by side pit stalls, and telling the Officials to tell the drivers the other one said something about his Momma. Those 2 made another suck ass race momentarily interesting.

I will bet anything Brian France sits down to pee.

Kevin in SoCal
08/28/2008 01:27 PM
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Come on Douglas, I thought you were smarter than that. There is a difference between a “congratulations” doughnut and a “I hate your guts cuz you won the race and I didnt” slam into the side of Edward’s car.

Jeff G
08/28/2008 03:09 PM
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Good point Kevin in SoCal.
I have read a lot of post from Douglas lately and I just don’t understand why he watches NASCAR (or as he puts it “NA$CRAP) races. Everything I’ve read from him is all negative. It seems he really hates it.

I hate liver, so I just don’t eat it.

Hey Douglas, don’t freakin’ watch anymore. Just think how much your Tums bill will go down….

Douglas
08/28/2008 03:50 PM
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OK folks, please read all the other posts re: NA$CAR!

NOT written by yours truly!

The masses have spoken: CURRENT DAY NA$CAR STINKS!

I am not alone, I just put it into writing!

And why should I just slink away and let Brian continue to ruin a once GREAT sport?

You want to accept mediocrity? That’s your business!!

I choose NOT to!!

Oh, and lest I forget! You can use whatever terminolgy is conveneient for you, in my terms Cousin Carl “slammed” Kyle out of the way! It’s just how you perceive it!

mike
08/28/2008 04:16 PM
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GO KYLE GO!!!

The more people hate you the more I love you. LOL.

Phil Allaway
08/28/2008 04:34 PM
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I’ll admit that I’m not a fan of these penalties, either. They’re really petty and probably don’t do anything. It’s essentially throwing the hammer around just to show that they can.

I volunteered for this entry in order to brainstorm. If anything, Kyle Busch needs to be punished simply for acting like a 9 year old. That’s not really NASCAR’s job, but his momma’s role. I already said that Edwards didn’t need to be punished at all. Admittedly, I’m pretty sure that a substantial number of people believe that he deserved that little bump.

Battiman
08/28/2008 07:52 PM
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Put the two of them in open wheel cars at the Indianapolis Speedway…then let them bump. End of the problem…real race cars don’t have fenders!

Real Racer
08/28/2008 09:23 PM
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Oooh, sorry Battiman. The correct answer is real race cars have wheelie bars, superchargers, wrinkle-wall tires and parachutes.

Thanks for playing and enjoy your copy of the home game.

Tom
08/31/2008 09:15 AM
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What a bunch of “bs” NASCAR wants their drivers to show some emotion, and when they do they slap their hand. The “rub” after the race was just that, did anyone notice the cars all lined up waiting to get on pit road as Kyle closed the distance? That’s why he took Carl high, to avoid the other cars, what Carl did in retaliation was wrong, a “rub” is OK, but not spinning someone out if he came back and “rubbed” that would be acceptable, both drivers would have control of their cars. Also the real idiot in this whole scenario was Denny H. Kyle’s “team mate” who couldn’t get around Carl let alone Kyle, what’s he do, he runs up and takes away Kyle’s line so he couldn’t come back and get around Kyle. Then he gets in his way for about five laps so Carl could get away. Sure Denny’s running for a spot in the chase, all he would have to do was wait for Kyle to come back and bump Carl up the track and go by then Carl would have returned the favor and wrecked them both, then Denny would have backed into a win. Instead he was selfish and it cost his team mate a win.

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